Help on No5 Mk1 flash hider...

[Rockcrusher]

removal and installation. A Gent on GunBoards
mentioned that Peter Laidler had a tutorial
on flash hider. Did anyone save the thread
from the old forum ? Pu a 1946 JC BSA about
a week ago in even trade for my VZ24 3 line
Brno. Both without import marks and both
very close to same condition. No Ishy screw,
matched #'s except for a lineout on bottom
of mag, BH there also but with a 5 digit #.
Gun buddy also threw in 32 rds of 1943 head-
stamped DZ .303 and pristine copy of the
Petrillo 32p softcover. Ammo still in original?
gray cardboard box. Any idea on value and
US or UK ? Noticed that the bayo lug was ground
off before trade but thought,"no big deal",
wrong ! Before i buy a $75 flash hider from
Springfield Sporters, would like to have all
info avail about removal, etc. Bore is bright
and shiney or this project wouldn't be con-
sidered. Hoping that one of you guys saved the
thread and can post for this JC noobie. TIA
RC

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

removal and installation. A Gent on GunBoards
mentioned that Peter Laidler had a tutorial
on flash hider. Did anyone save the thread
from the old forum ? Pu a 1946 JC BSA about
a week ago in even trade for my VZ24 3 line
Brno. Both without import marks and both
very close to same condition. No Ishy screw,
matched #'s except for a lineout on bottom
of mag, BH there also but with a 5 digit #.
Gun buddy also threw in 32 rds of 1943 head-
stamped DZ .303 and pristine copy of the
Petrillo 32p softcover. Ammo still in original?
gray cardboard box. Any idea on value and
US or UK ? Noticed that the bayo lug was ground
off before trade but thought,"no big deal",
wrong ! Before i buy a $75 flash hider from
Springfield Sporters, would like to have all
info avail about removal, etc. Bore is bright
and shiney or this project wouldn't be con-
sidered. Hoping that one of you guys saved the
thread and can post for this JC noobie. TIA
RC

No.5 Wandering Zero: Peter Laidler opinion?
Posted By: Peter Laidler
Date: Sat 26 Jul 2008 6:13 am
In Response To: No.5 Wandering Zero: Peter Laidler opinion? (milprileb)
Hi Milpreb and others. Yes, the little No5 rifle. As I said, we still had some in Malaya in the mid 60’s plus I’d say, a thousand or so+ that came through our huge Base Workshops in Singapore where from Australia, New Zealand, Malaya, Hong Kong Vietnam and occasionally Fiji Armourers would regularly congregate for various reasons. And a week or so exploring the bustling sights and sounds of night-time Singapore was probably top of the list. But being a young, celibate, church-going, teetotal young lad, I stayed in and knitted scarves and darned socks for the needy. But I digress.
I have to confess that until I was in New Zealand in 1967, I didn’t know that in early 1949 the No5 was on the cusp of being introduced as the standard service rifle to replace the No4. I read this while reading an old, little document in the workshop bosses office, ASM Leo Francis ( ….remember him Kim?). The document was about the sale of and introduction into New Zealand of the .22” No8 rifle. The document was aimed at Australia too but I never saw a No8 when I was there, except for an odd-ball owned by ASM Clive Connors at Bandiana. He was another RAEME Armourer …., who’d probably ‘liberated’ it when he was somewhere. I did get him some spares sent over in the freight from Malaya, consisting of 1 complete and another all-but complete rifle but I digress again. The document in Leo’s office at Ngaruawahia went on to say that the No5 was introduced into British Army service and will eventually supplant the No2 rifle and various others throughout. ‘Throughout’ probably meant the other odds and sods such as the No7’s and No9’s plus the little ex US lend lease Mossbergs that you could still see occasionally. It was correct because the No8 did replace them eventually although the RAF Cadets at Abingdon did still have a couple of No7’s in 1982. But the No8 was the norm.
Oh, yes. The document said that the No8 rifle had been developed in look, style, feel and weight as a direct result of the forthcoming decision to adopt the No5 rifle as the standard arm throughout the Army. I asked Jock Annandale about it in conversation and he’d obviously heard and read this and commented to me that while it was a laudable idea, the No5 had many problems and while it might be OK in the jungle and as a short range close quarter weapon, it was definitely NOT a rifle for long ranges we’d expect in Europe. This was because once it got hot, its zero went. It was as simple as that. And as you all know, once you start to follow your zero over the target, it’s time to stop for the day. That’s because YOU are following the zero and generally, your eyes are going and you’re tired. But when it’s the RIFLE that’s causing it……………. And the No5 RIFLE did. He also told me, in words that Warrant Officers are apt to use when a silly suggestion is made, that the notion that the whole of the Commonwealth was going to change, when they were knee deep in perfectly good, almost new No4’s was pure , er ….., horse, er ……, manure!
I asked the other Armourers in Malaya, especially the LEP (locally enlisted) Chinese and Malays (known as MOR’s …, Malayan Other Ranks) and they all knew about the rifles going off zero but in the short ranges that they were used, it was academic. So in Malaya they stayed. You could always tell the high mileage rifles, apart from the shot-out barrels because the backsight axis pin retaining pin (longest name of a part on the rifle. The PIN, retaining, pin axis backsight) was always sheared where the bodies had expanded at the rear and sheared it. So, if at the moment of firing/and max pressure/load the body spreads at the rear, especially during a gun battle, I suppose it would upset the balance between the locking lugs, bolt and cartridge seating on the bolt face.
I think I mentioned earlier that when we were doing the big Crown Agents FTR programme, it was priced (so I was told) that if 70 came in, 70 went out and if some were ZF’d (scrap) then they’d be replaced from our ANZUK (I think this was Aust, NZ and UK stockholdings) mobilization stores from the huge …., and I mean HUGE Ordnance stockpiles close by at Johore Bahru. So we would cannibalise No5’s and if necessary, send them out with No4 bodies.
I don’t think it was the kick that made them wander off because we would fire hundreds every day in just shorts and boots. No shirts, hats or ear defenders. During this shooting the boss of the Ordnance Stores depot, a nice bloke called WO1 Arnold, (we all called him ‘Sir’ to be polite), used to bring his son down for days during the school holidays, especially on Bren days and son, age about 15 or so used to load the magazines and shoot the rifles/Brens for function testing first then we got him used to shooting the accuracy tests at the special Armourers target screen. He was quite good too and always mixed in. But we were only a couple of years older than him anyway. His mum was always nice to us, so was dad really, and used to bring a load of bottles of cold Frazer and Neave orange juice and home made things to scoff for break. We had some Brens with front grips that you could use as heavy SMG’s, fired from well tucked back in the waist during jungle patrolling and we’d let him fire these at the targets from very close range. God, I shudder at the thought now. If I saw someone doing it now I’d go ballistic …., let alone allow a young lad to do it! The Small Arms shop 2i/c S/Sgt Beady and the AQMS Dick Shepherd used to think it was a bit of a punishment to be sent on the range for the day because the No5’s used to jump about a bit and crack but when there were a few of us there, we were out of the way
Oh, yes. Back to No5’s. Some of them just wouldn’t zero so they’d be examined and if necessary, re-barreled or just stripped for spares or scrapped. some were as good as gold. I never did get to the bottom of why they had a wandering zero problem. Just theories but they certainly did. Whether YOURS has or not is a bit academic but while I don’t think it had a bad name, it certainly wasn’t a myth.

[Peter Laidler]

Can someone resurrect the bit that tells him how to remove the flash eliminator with a press. It'll save me writing it all again........... Peter

[stevyn]

Yes a repost would be a tremendous help.

[me2]

I have changed 2 butchered flash hiders. I have read info from Peter and one thing is that the flash hider is cross-pinned with TAPER pins. These pins are installed with the taper opposite from side to side, that is one pin is driven left to right the other is driven right to left. You have to measure the holes to find the larger end of each hole. Then as with all taper pins you drive it out from the small hole end. I bought a high quality set of pin drifts and used it to drive the pins out. I did all the work with the barrel clamped in my vice with hardwood blocks to protect the finish. To remove the old hider I made a brass split ring with an inside diameter about .020 larger than the barrel o.d. I clamped the two halves of the split ring together behind the flash hider with worm clamps. I heated the hider with a propane torch till a little too hot to touch then drove it off with a small weighted leather mallet. Interestingly I found solder under the first one I removed and no solder under the second one. Installing the replacement involves removing the rear sight,fit new hider on the barrel, laying the barreled action upside down on a sheet of glass (for flatness). Rotate the hider until the sight ears lay level on the glass, reclamp in vice then install the taper pins driving them in from the large hole side. I used masking tape to provide a witness mark on the hider body and the barrel to insure it did not shift while driving the pins back in. If the pins are removed correctly they can be reused. I'm not sure if american pins will be the equivalent of the originals. One more thing the hole locations from flash hider to flash hider can vary, the second one I replaced ($75 from Springfield) had a slightly greater distance between the holes. I had to enlarge one of the slots in the barrel using a small round jewelers file (file & test fit) untill the pin would go all the way in snugly. It can be done, but attention to detail is important. Good Luck!!

[Surpmil]

Can someone resurrect the bit that tells him how to remove the flash eliminator with a press. It'll save me writing it all again...........Peter

IIRC you said after removing the pins to hang the barreled action on the rear faces of the flash hider on and between suitable blocks of steel in a hydraulic press. Then insert a rod .375" or slightly smaller than the throat of the flash hider until it rested on the muzzle of the barrel, then apply pressure to the other end of the rod as needed.

From misguided (ie: using a hammer) experience I can say that sometimes the pins are soft enough that they will shear off at the junction between the barrel and the inside of the flash hider, which may interest someone with a pin or pins that just won't come out.

Of course it's almost as hard to get the sheared off remains of the pins out of the flash hider as it is the whole pin.

[Peter Laidler]

From my experience milsurp and others, if any of the remnants of the taper pin remain in the pin holes of the flash eliminator, when you press it off using a brass dowel in a press, as we used to do, it WILL pucker the barrel at that point on the muzzle. It's a very small pucker, very difficult to see, but it will prevent the .301" must-run gage from running and will also foul the muzzle gauge. I suppose you might get away with it...........................

[Surpmil]

Good to know Peter, as those I was removing were from junked barreled actions and I never examined the bores after removal.

[Brian Dick]

Are the Springfield Sporters flash hiders originals? If not, ponder welding a square block onto the existing flash hider and dressing it back down to bayonet lug specification. Without the proper tools, changing the No.5 flash hider is a bastard of a job. Food for thought.

[me2]

Brian, I cant speak for all the flash hiders sold by SS but the one I got was orig. had broad arrow and M47 stamped on it plus some other numbers.