New to me Trapdoor and questions

[Leatherbark]

Couldnt pass this one up...... 424,XXX serial number range. It has a 77/79? rear sight (not a buffington and not a 73 sight). Breechblock dated 1873. Pretty good bore with crisp rifling all the way to the muzzle. Crown nice and sharp where the rifling emerges. It does have a few patches of pitting in the grooves here and there. I used some JB bore paste and polished the bore somewhat.
I've been loading a 405 gr FP (not HB) Lee from wheelweights (already on hand) and it seems to like H 4198 (30gr) better than either 3031(38.5gr) or 5744 (28gr). I crimped the first loads I tried which did not group very well at 50 yards. The H 4198 load shot a 3 inch group with three touching and the other 2 strung high. 3031 didnt even hit the target.....5744 was not as good as H 4198. I crimped these loads with a LFCD.
I'm at the loading bench again, but this time I molded some bullets with a 20/1 lead/tin mix and am using 30 gr of H 4198. Should I crimp? These are coming out of the mold at 460 and I use Liquid alox as I dont have a lubrisizer yet.
One other question. I have a Lee HB mold on backorder (looks like Sept). Does my Trapdoor have a 1/22 twist and will it handle the Lyman 457125 500grainer?. I'll eventually load black as soon as I gather up what is needed Drop tube , measure, wads, SPG etc................Thanks..........Bob

Information

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[JBS]

I had a customer that had good luck with Trailboss and a HB bullet. I do not recall the mold maker but he was using 30/1. Sorry I can’t remember more.

[JimF in CT]

Using 4198 powder in the "humongous" 45-70 case has it's "problems"!

Not the least of which is, that one of my favorite loads using it (28 grs.), I find I MUST elevate the muzzle just before ignition to ensure the powder rests at the BACK of the case (against the primer).
If I don't, shots are all over the target. --Jim

[tbeck]

If you are using the standard Lee 45 mold, I'm surprised it shoots well at all. Trapdoors generally have large groove diameters, .460" and more, so they tend to keyhole a lot with .458" bullets. Slugs need to be very soft and get hit hard enough by the initial pressure rise to expand a little. Black powder does this well, but most smokeless goes off too softly at the pressure levels Trapdoors can stand. NEI and Rapine use to make oversize 45 molds just for Trapdoors. Buffalo arms sold them (and may still, I haven't ordered a mold in a long time). Your rifle will probably be a lot more tolerant of different powders with a larger bullet.

[kaotic01]

I have been shooting the trapdoor for a while now and have found that Accurate brand 5744 works well , 26 -28 gr with a 500 grain bullet.

But I duplex load and well........................that's a story for another day!!!

[Bear 45/70]

Using 4198 powder in the "humongous" 45-70 case has it's "problems"!

Not the least of which is, that one of my favorite loads using it (28 grs.), I find I MUST elevate the muzzle just before ignition to ensure the powder rests at the BACK of the case (against the primer).
If I don't, shots are all over the target. --Jim

News to me. I've been using the H-4198 for everything 45/70 from my Trapdoors (original and H&R replica), my Marlin 1895, Ruger #1, H&R Buffalo Classic and my Thompson Contender Super 14 handgun plus a Baikal coachgun with 45/70 barrel inserts. Never had an issue in over 15 years with any load from a mouse load of 28 grains up to a "Seeing God" 59.5 grain load, all under a 300 grain bullet. I have since started using only 405 and 500 grain lead bullets. still no issues and I don't use filler either.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

If you are using the standard Lee 45 mold, I'm surprised it shoots well at all. Trapdoors generally have large groove diameters, .460" and more, so they tend to keyhole a lot with .458" bullets. .

Groove diameters over .459/.460 is a debatable thing. the good thing about Trapdoors is that the vast majority of TDs' BORE diameters tend to be fairly uniform around .450". Thus, there is plenty of grip on just about ANY .457/.458 bullet you care to use. I have shot Trapdoors for 25 years with good to excellent results with bullets sized .458. In fact, getting any bullet bigger than .459 into a standard .45-70 case is pretty hard to do without distorting things. As far as keyholing, in the more than a dozen I have owned, I would be floored if I say even a HINT of a keyhole. The key to lead bullets in TDs is bullet QUALITY. Most bulk box 405 grain bullets are crapola.

and PS, I also think that 4198 is an excellent choice, especially for jacketed commercial Speer and Remington 300-400 grain bullets..

[Bear 45/70]

...................and PS, I also think that 4198 is an excellent choice, especially for jacketed commercial Speer and Remington 300-400 grain bullets..

I never have and will never shoot anything but lead bullets in my original Trapdoor. Barrel is really too soft for jacketed bullets. In my H&R Replica Trapdoor I could shoot jacketed but I'm not gonna.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

feel free to post a source of actual empirical proof that TD rifle barrels are "too soft," for jacketed bullets. Not knowing any better, I shot hundreds and hundreds (and hundreds) of Speer and Remington jacketed bullets in the first TD I owned and when I finally sold it (1881), the bore was just as crisp and sharp as the day I first got it. Since then, ditto on all the other TDs I have owned..

I guess it "sounds" like this makes sense, and to the extent that cast lead bullets will wear ANY barrel less than jacketed, it is likely true. The problem is that you can't even BEGIN to measure this comparable wear until you have fired TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds through the bore.

I suspect this canard got started from the transition period between smokeless and jacketed ammuntion. SOme barrels could were rated for smokeless CHAMBER PRESSURES others were not (i.e. Wincheter lever guns with "smokeless steel" written on the barrels).

Always amuses me that people will cling to this notion to the death, yet not one single empirical test, study, etc. has sver been done to actually prove it. It's like people saying don't shoot "boat tail bullets," or "AP bullets will wear out your bore (little hint, in an actual test, AP was significantly more GENTLE on bores than ball in Garands! ooops).

[Bear 45/70]

feel free to post a source of actual empirical proof that TD rifle barrels are "too soft," for jacketed bullets. Not knowing any better, I shot hundreds and hundreds (and hundreds) of Speer and Remington jacketed bullets in the first TD I owned and when I finally sold it (1881), the bore was just as crisp and sharp as the day I first got it. Since then, ditto on all the other TDs I have owned..

I guess it "sounds" like this makes sense, and to the extent that cast lead bullets will wear ANY barrel less than jacketed, it is likely true. The problem is that you can't even BEGIN to measure this comparable wear until you have fired TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds through the bore.

I suspect this canard got started from the transition period between smokeless and jacketed ammuntion. SOme barrels could were rated for smokeless CHAMBER PRESSURES others were not (i.e. Wincheter lever guns with "smokeless steel" written on the barrels).

Always amuses me that people will cling to this notion to the death, yet not one single empirical test, study, etc. has sver been done to actually prove it. It's like people saying don't shoot "boat tail bullets," or "AP bullets will wear out your bore (little hint, in an actual test, AP was significantly more GENTLE on bores than ball in Garands! ooops).

Why on God's Green Earth would you even consider taking a chance with a valuable piece of American history?

Oh and there is no way on God's Green Earth that the barrel on my original Trapdoor is as hard as the one on my replica, mainly because they didn't have the technology bad then to make then hard enough for jacketed bullets, which didn't exist to start with.