Warner & Swasey scope mounted on a Patt. 14 (T)?

[Peter Laidler]

BDL has the user and technical handbook for the Warner and Swasey telescopes.

From a quick browse through our librabry copy, all I can say is that the W&S scope would have stood two chances in the field..... slim and none!

[Simon]

Simon,
The inevitable question, Does the No32 adaptor/base/pads bear any remarkable resemblance to the W&S and the Patt.18 as well? Might you be coerced into posting those drawings? I haven't been so giddy about info in a long time. Thank you again!

Whoops, forgot to log out. The above is WBS2111. I'm using his computer whilst loitering about the gunstore trying to stay awake (midnight shift guy).

Here's a section of the P14/No32 scope bracket drawing. I've taken the liberty of sanitising it of all dimensional information otherwise before you know it there'll be a glut of "original" P14/No32 combo's appearing for sale.

Cheers,
Simon.

P.S. I've got other information / drawings in the archives relating to trials installation of the 42 and 53 scopes on both the P14 and No4.

[wbs2111]

Simon,
Fantastic! Thank you very much! Would love to see any you are willing to share. Quite elegant looking compared to standard No4(t) bracket. Makes you wonder if any were ever purchased on the open market just to have the No32 stripped off to doctor up a 4T. I now have a new "Holy Grail." Simon, Thank you again for sharing.

[Simon]

Here's the P14 with a bracket designed to take the No42 or 53 scope. Interesting that even at the beginning of WWII the powers that be where still considering an offset scope.

Cheers,
Simon.

[wbs2111]

Very similar to the Frankford Arsenal experimental's for the 1903 around the same time with the forward external adjustments. Frankford went as far as to combine the off set mounting with a prism much like the Zeiss prismatic for the 08/15 MG but had it so the ocular would swing over center line with the scope still off set. I have seen a No4 with the same type of mounting. It looked a bit cobbled but wonder now if someone took a P14 mounting and tried to retro fit it. Great stuff. Thanks again!
Cheers,
Burrell

[Surpmil]

....The picture posted in this thread and in the books "Without Warning" and "Out of Nowhere" has a base mounted on the side of the receiver that is clearly like that of the Ross/03.

I'd agree after taking another look. The base shown on the P14 in "Without Warning" does look like it is aligned with the axis of the bore vertically, whereas this mount is considerably higher. Perhaps too much so.

So, I go back to the theory that the bases were modified Ross type taken to England with the scopes in 1939.

If the P14 W&S base drawing that has been kindly reproduced above was dated 7th February 1940 that would be before the request to Canada for scope-equipped Rosses made in May 1940 (No doubt made after the German attack in the West on May 10th.)

Perhaps the Ross was considered unsuitable from a maintenance point of view at that quiet point in the war (that is during the "Phoney War" before May 10th) and it was intended to provide for the possibility of re-using the W&S scopes from the Rosses on P14s.

If it was dated 2nd of July 1940, the sense of urgency must have been considerably greater! I still wonder where they thought the Ross sights were going to come from; perhaps the apparent "surplus" in Canadian stores, or from the USA? The 7000 odd US W&S Mod 1913 scopes had all been sold off as surplus long before though IIRC.

Would it have been worthwhile to make up mounts for the 100 odd "surplus" scopes in Canada alone? Would the authorities in the UK not have been advised that extra bases were being made in Canada to refit all the scopes to Ross rifles and/orP14s? Perhaps not.

One wonders if a significant number of the "missing" 100+ W&S scopes from the 500 procured in WWI were still in the UK in 1940 - was the drawing prepared to re-use these perhaps? Or just 'in case' of some other scenario?

Given that there were still plenty of men around who remembered that the great defect of the W&S was the lack of any means of tightening the scope onto the dovetail base, it's surprising the proposed mount doesn't address that with say, a couple of set screws coming through the male dovetail from the bolt handle side. Of course it would have been easy enough to have drilled and tapped the bronze dovetail mount on the scope and put a knurled screw or two in that the soldier could tighten by hand to get the same effect. AFAIK that was not done, so the soldiers using the W&S in WWII had to deal with the same slop in the mounts their fathers did!

It all shows again the folly of breaking up the SMLE sniper rifles after WWI.

[Surpmil]

Here's a section of the P14/No32 scope bracket drawing. I've taken the liberty of sanitising it of all dimensional information otherwise before you know it there'll be a glut of "original" P14/No32 combo's appearing for sale.

Cheers,
Simon.

P.S. I've got other information / drawings in the archives relating to trials installation of the 42 and 53 scopes on both the P14 and No4.

Very interesting how they have used a larger spigot on the front pad and a steeper taper on the rear. To prevent attempts to fit the No4 bracket? Only if the center to center distance between the "thumb screws" was same on both mounts, I assume.

If the authorities wanted so much to make clip loading possible, you'd think they could have come up with a long eye relief scope for not much more effort than all this fiddling with different offset mounts trying to use unsuitable scopes. Noske for one, was making them in the States in the 1930s. No harder to make than a No32 - probably easier - judging by the one I had, which had an almost 6 inch eye relief IIRC. FOV might have been an issue though...

[Melanie_Daniels]

I hope it works with the pictures: This is one of the Canadian scopes.