Peter, sentencing process queston

[breakeyp]

Please correct me where I am wrong.

A rifle is not performing to standards and the owner brings it to the attention of the armourer. (I know you guys could repair anything with tin cans, bailing wire and duct tape--but bear with me here). The armourer agrees that repair is beyond his level and the weapon is forwarded to a higher maintence level with I suppose proper paperwork saying it doesn't work and probable cause is xxxx. If they agree, do they mark the rifle BLR in paint (beyond local repair) or ZF (stamped into the buttstock flat). I have seen both on different guns.

It finally goes to the unit that can repair it and the repair is done and all is fine but the sentencing marks are still on the rifle--either removable or stamped forever in the wood. Or do they grind/turpentine it off?

Now the question I have as a collector is, if I encounter those markings on my gun--has it been corrected or not? Was the gun surplused with faults? How do you guys tell if it was fixed or not with those markings still floating around? I have never seen a ZF cancelled. I can see alot of wasted time here. Thanks, p.

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[Thunderbox]

I think Peter is still having his breakfast and reading the Sunday papers, so i'll jump in...

So far as I recall, a (British) "ZF" marked weapon should have been scrapped, rather than repaired and recycled. In theory, such weapons should not re-appear at all.

Similarly, all of the "BLR" equipment I ever handled had the "BLR" annotated on an attached paper stores tag that would - of course - be removed once the item was repaired at depot. (Big items such as landrovers and Bedfords often had "VoR/BLR" inscribed on the bodywork with chalk.)

Therefore I wonder if the stamped "ZF" and painted "BLR" marks we see on No4s/ No5s are in fact unrelated to the British Army coding, and might be instead various types of foreign ownership marks?

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes...., good question. The principle you mention is correct there Break. But when the weapon got back to Ordnance or the main Base workshop awaiting repair, then it might go into a holding area awaiting, say, 250 SLR's needing major repairs, In the meantime the rifle would be replaced with a new or refurbished rifle from Ordnance so that the unit wouldn't be short. Get me so far.....?

So these 250 rifles sit there in Ordnance awaiting call-in from the huge Base workshops. But in the meantime, 750 rifles are put up for disposal. So what do they dispose of? 750 GOOD rifles or 750 scrap/BER/ZF rifles. Yep, got it in one. The rubbish is ALWAYS disposed of first.

On many occasions the AMP (thats another army technical term for the unwary, indicating the Average Member of the Public....) who eventually purchases one of the rifles will not understand and cannot see why it has been condemned.

I saw one so marked rifle and on closer examination saw that the locking lug on the body had been rebuilt and had a size 1 locking catch. This immediately told me that the body was worn and after the lug had been rebuilt with weld, and reverted to the original size locking catch, then once it wears again, it wasn't good practice to rebuild and re-size a second time. So it was scrapped.

Would I use one that carried the painted-on ZF or BER markings? NO.

Would the markings remain after it had been repaired, definately NOT. Once it had been repaired/rebuilt to factory new standard, it would go back into Ordnance to await re-issue

Phew.................. Is that pretty well clear?

[breakeyp]

Peter as always thanks for clearing away the dead wood. It always bugged me that they would stamp the wood with a temporary marking. best, p.

[Badger]

Peter as always thanks for clearing away the dead wood. It always bugged me that they would stamp the wood with a temporary marking. best, p.

Great question Paul ...

For years, I always wondered the same thing myself ...

Regards,
Badger

[Peter Laidler]

Thunderbox, were you REME? Where do you reside?

On the basis if this question I ought to do a short article about how the system worked with an imaginary bit of kit going through it. But importantly, exactly what all the markings relate/refer to. Not just markings, but coloured blobs of paint too!

[Thunderbox]

Peter, no - not REME - just an end user that had to account for a lot of broken kit! (Rapier, Javelin, arty, tracked vehicles, small arms, para MSPs where the 'chutes didn't open - flat landrovers, etc....).

You do know me: as a regular customer for scope refurbs, and as one of the LERA regulars at Warminster, and from my trading stand at the Bisley arms fairs - usually next to those dodgy types at EFD......

[Badger]

Thunderbox, were you REME? Where do you reside?

On the basis if this question I ought to do a short article about how the system worked with an imaginary bit of kit going through it. But importantly, exactly what all the markings relate/refer to. Not just markings, but coloured blobs of paint too!

Peter, that would be an excellent article for the MKL (Milsurp Knowledge Library) ...

Send it along anytime and we'll publish it ...

Regards,
Badger (Doug)

[lngstrt]

Peter;

Thanks for the info. Can we define the word 'dispose'?

[breakeyp]

Peter, you have just told me Santa is not real and the Easter Bunny won't be visiting because he was in the stew last Sunday. This has caused me to think this thing further.

Since potentially bad rifles/pistols were surplused off with no control over function/liability, lets expand this further.

Enfield sold all remaining parts/floor sweepings to Springfield Sporters in the US and J. Jovino bought all remaining Australian Lithgow parts/floor sweepings and parts in process/quaranteen, what is the status of some of the wonderful new condition parts were are blissfully purchasing? There may be some clinkers in the mix. I was told that the SS buy involved Enfield dumping boxes of parts into crates and shipped away. I wonder if purchasing a new part that does not solve the problem may be due to the new part being out of print as well! Are bad parts consolidated and destroyed or stored and later made it into the JJ and SS buy as they probably paid by the pound. I see scoundrels everywhere.