Do I have a Savage sniper?

[Mudhut]

A friend sold to me a No4MK1*"sniper." Please help me verify that it really is one.

The story is that he got it some 46 years ago from a friend of the family that was a WWII vet and gun collector. It does not have a scope. It has no import marks that I can see.

Peeking out from under the front scope pad are the letters "TY" Based on pictures I have seen, I'm guessing that what is covered up by the pad is "US PROPERTY." The left side of the receiver socket has the following on it:

15C 7XXX
S (looks like a 5)
1942
Flaming Bomb
ENGLAND

On the top right side of the reciever socket is a flaming bomb. There is also a Crown BNP proof mark in the front left side of the receiver ring next to the gas escape hole.

The bolt handle has the serial number OC19XX followed by what could be a lightly struck flaming bomb. The bolt cocking piece is the button variety.

The letter "S" (which looks like a 5) can be found all over this rifle (front sight wings, barrel bands, mag and mag follower, rear sight, bolt, and bolt head---which is also marked with a number 1). The front sight wings look like they are stamped metal. On the bottom of the nose cap appear the letters "SM."

On the underside of the the buttstock, close to the receiver socket, is an S inside a box. It is above a crown with what looks like a 13 underneath the crown. The buttstock has the H&H "S51" stamp on the bottom. Behind the nose cap in the underside of the stock is stamped JC or JG 1122. Below that is an arrow of sorts made by three 1/4 inch lines.

It has a simple loop in front of the takedown screw with what looks like a lightly struck "S" next to it. I have not disassembled the rifle to examine the barrel or the inside of the stock for any manufacturing or inspection marks.

The rear sight is rounded out on the back. The pads are tight although 4 of the 5 screws look like I had a go at them. The three front pad screws are rounded and the two rear pad screws are flat. The pads look to be well installed with the front pad screws visible through the reciever wall but polished down flush with the surrounding metal in a very professional manner.

The butt stock has what looks like an aluminum butt plate in nearly "like new" condition.

The rifle is in very good shape and the barrel cleaned up very well...it looks like a five groove to my untrained eye and while I would not describe the bore as "mirror" it is very nice.

This site contains information from a helpful article by Terry Warner about spotting a fake sniper rilfe. It appears to suggest that there were no Savage sniper rifles made with No4Mk1* marked receivers, only No4Mk1 receivers. In addition, it does not have a (T) stamp next to the model designation. It does not have a scope number stamped on the top of the buttstock waist behind the receiver. It does not have an S on the right side behind the receiver ring that I can see. It does not have an angular sling swivel on the takedown screw in front of the magaine.

I would appreciate an expert opinion about the provenance and authenticity of this "sniper" No4Mk1*.

Thank you.

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[jona]

RJW-NZ RJW-NZ is offline
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Sounds like the real deal, end of discussion. Savage did send rifles to be made into snipers, mostly in their early days when serial numbers were low, and not very many compared to other makers. A swag of them reached civilians without scopes but are the real deal.
A swag is a new unit of measurement superceding metric in Australia.
I had one of these and it was very smooth to use the bolt and bloomin accurate, 5 groove barrel too. Mine had a PH marked barrel in small letters, parker hale, yours? Mine did not have the S 51 but the serial number was right in the range known to have been shipped for the conversion.
There is a fan on this forum who collects data on savage snipers, no doubt he'll be happy to hear from you.

Value? About the same as any other T sniper without scope and the same with, ie about $1,000 without seems to be not uncommon, but cheaper of course is always better if you're buying, and with a scope they can easily be $2500. (Trouble is the scopes are hard to find and they can cost $2500 on their own too!)
If you want some ideas browse gunbroker, there is always T's for sale there with and without scopes.

Funnily enough I might have a scope and mount for sale next week, got $?

Well done, good find for you.
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JB White JB White is online now
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The buttplate is not aluminum but mazak/Zamack/pot metal depending upon where you live.

The SM is a Singer (Scotland) manufacturers marking so at least one non-Savage bit found it's way onboard. Nothing to be especially alarmed about today.

"England" is the country of origin for importation back into the US. It's not a martial stamping. It's an older import mark so to speak, but an import marking nonetheless.

Sounds like a nice find.
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John Sukey John Sukey is offline
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The clue here is that the scope number should be marked on the small of the stock right behind the reciever. If it's not there, then while the rifle was set up for a scope, it never had one, which is true of most Savage rifles.
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[Beerhunter]

The markings verify that it is indeed a Savage production (A square S is savage.) No4 Mk1* that has been through the British Civilian ownership (BNP = Birmingham Nitro Proof) and imported to the US (ENGLAND).

However as far as I know, no Savage No4Mk1*s were converted by H&H and so the butt stock and its markings are a bit of mystery.

The missing TR and T are also odd. I await more knowledgeable comment about it being a sniper rifle.

[Badger]

I would appreciate an expert opinion about the provenance and authenticity of this "sniper" No4Mk1*.

Thank you.

Hi ....

Pics would be helpful, however, if you want to compare your Savage Enfield against an "all correct" as originally issued one, go to the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here) and view two different entries.

There's an 82 picture photo gallery montage for a 1943 Savage No.4 Mk1* Enfield Rifle (click here).

Also, with thanks to Advisory Panel member Lance, there's also a rare "all correct" 1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope) (click here) .....

Lance's article, accompanied by a detailed 165 pic photo montage, speaks to this example as being one of approximately 3,400 Savage rifles converted by Holland and Holland and re-barreled with an Enfield 5 groove barrel, however, it was never fitted with a matching No.32 scope.

Hope this helps...

Regards,
Badger

[MJ1]

Two 15C rifles

[Roger Payne]

Savage Mk1* (T)'s -- generally 11C to 15C range. Often rebarrelled with UK made 5 groove barrels, but have owned two with their original 2 groovers (explain that!). All were converted by H&H, along with all other T's save for the Trials rifles & Long Branch rifles. Markings on these early conversions (1942) are totally out of kilter with the marking system quoted in Peter Laidler's book, but I think most people now accept this is because the marking system did not arrive in its definitive form on day 1 of H&H's conversion run, but rather evolved into what is quoted in the books & what is seen on most later rifles (late '43 onwards). Some Mk1* rifles WERE scoped up, though they are probably in the minority.

Your rifle sounds just fine....

ATB

[Mudhut]

Thanks to all for the feedback. It is much appreciated. I'll try to post some pictures.

[Mudhut]

My apologies...my "old" digital camera is not up to the task of taking close-up pictures to show the markings. It is, nevertheless, marked as described. I did notice another mark: an R is stamped inside the lightening cut in the bolt. I'd like to remove the stock and take a peek to see who made the barrel but I don't want to damage anything.

Question: Who would have likely made the barrel? It looks like a five groove.

Question: Is it common for the bolt serial number not to match the serial number on the rifle?

Question: Is the number 1 that is stamped in the bolt head an indication of the headspace? If so, is 1 better than 2?

I have noticed a red wax-like substance on the top rear surface of the raised cheek piece. It is really just a one to two inch smudge but I wonder if it may have been grease pencil or paint marking at one time.

One defect I have noticed, other than handling marks, is the rear sight adjustment screw--the shaft is bent making it difficult to dial up or down. Are S marked replacements available or am I better off leaving well enough alone?

Assuming I took the plunge and put a scope on this rifle (somewhat likely), what is recommended other than original equipment?

I'll post a range report later.

Thank you.

[MJ1]

Does the Camera have a MACRO setting and timer?

...MJ...

[Warren]

This one has been in a private collection for over 50 years and not humped. The wrist is marked with the scope number (not matching) and has most of the relevant markings for a "T"....
They do exist. There is also a very nice matching unit in western Canada that an old deceased chum used to own but sold off when his health began to fail..