British Rifles From 1880 Massacre Found

[Badger]

A little dated, but still interesting ...

Brit Rifles From 1880 Massacre Found

June 25, 2008
The Independent

British soldiers serving in Afghanistan have recovered weapons taken from the bodies of their Victorian forebears.

Rare Martini-Henry rifles lost in the bloody defeat at Maiwand in July 1880 have been retrieved 128 years later by troops fighting the Taliban and al-Qa'ida in Helmand province.

Two of the rifles, dated 1874 and 1878, are currently on sale in a Sussex antique shop for 1,100 apiece.

Mark Hawkins, co-owner of The Lanes Armoury, Brighton, said: "When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.

"Now British officers are finding these guns, recognise them for what they are, and are getting permission to bring them back. We've had a few through. I think a soldier might pick up a couple, keep one as a souvenir of his time in Afghanistan, and bring the other to us."

Peter Smithurst, senior curator of historic firearms at the Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds, said: "The Martini-Henry was the first purpose-made breech-loading rifle introduced into British service. It is an iconic rifle."

The Martini is particularly popular with collectors, he said, because of both its place in the development of firearms technology and for the role it played in the famous battles of Britain's colonial campaigns.

Smithurst said Afghanistan was increasingly a source of antique firearms. "I have been getting quite a few email inquiries from British servicemen and the American forces as well."

Hawkins said: "The Martini-Henry is a very, very collectable gun - almost entirely down to Michael Caine and the film Zulu. Everyone who has seen that film has seen the Martini-Henry and knows it is the rifle used by the British in that era."

Unlike the successful defence of Rorke's Drift in 1879, as featured in Zulu, the battle of Maiwand a year later was one of the worst British defeats of Queen Victoria's 63-year reign. A 2,500- strong Anglo/Indian force was routed by an Afghan army of about 12,000 men.

Among the 1,000 British and Indian dead were 286 men of the Martini-armed 66th (Berkshire) Regiment, who made a last stand in a walled garden in the village of Khig. When only two officers and nine men of the 66th remained alive, they charged the hordes of tribesmen surrounding them.

An Afghan witness described the end: "These men charged from the shelter of a garden and died with their faces to the enemy. So fierce was their charge, and so brave their actions, no Afghan dared approach to cut them down. Standing in the open, back to back, firing steadily, every shot counting, surrounded by thousands, these British soldiers died. It was not until the last man was shot down that the Afghans dared to advance. The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it."

The weapons they wielded so gallantly could finally be returning home.

Regards,
Badger

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[TheDoubleD]

The story is old and it was determined that absent unit markings there was no way to prove these rifles were anything but "another" Martini.

[Richardwv]

As Douglas points out, the lack of unit markings makes such claims, while highly romantic, also highly speculative. The MH was the standard arm of the region, with the Afghan central government keeping the MH as standard arms well into the 20th century and even ordering new ones well after all other military production had ceased. Assuming every captured MH rifle survived until today, the number would still represent a small fraction of those in country. Yes some of those brought back probably are captured weapons, but based on simple math, the vast majority can't be.

The same goes for many rifles claimed to be from the MH's iconic battle at Isandlwana. If every rifle so claimed was actually from there the Brits would have had to have lost a force in the tens of thousands and not the 1,300 actually lost. While occassionally a match can be made from a serial number that was document for one reason or another, or other unique feature, the vast majority are lost to the winds of time for lack of any documentation.

[jmoore]

At least the British soldiers can still bring something back. Big no-no for US troops.

[Richardwv]

US troops must use a form 6 and get ATF to certify no permit necessary. Based on current turn around times, that is about a 5-6 week process. This came about because of all the fraudulant stamping and manufacture in the region. Once ATF says it is an antique, the process goes on as always. While a pain, the wide spread fakes in the region made something like this inevitable.

[limpetmine]

US troops must use a form 6 and get ATF to certify no permit necessary. Based on current turn around times, that is about a 5-6 week process. This came about because of all the fraudulant stamping and manufacture in the region. Once ATF says it is an antique, the process goes on as always. While a pain, the wide spread fakes in the region made something like this inevitable.

Is that this is no longer the case. No firearms-none, nada.

[Richardwv]

M-H’s from Afghanistan – and some questions (w/pic’s) - Gunboard's Forums

Seems the pipeline was still open last week.

[jon_norstog]

Getting back to the last stand of the 66th Berkshire, those men knew how to die! Not that I'm in favor of dying, but if it comes to that, well, show some class.

And shooting any big Martini, you will make the same moves those men made in their last moments.Think about that.

jn

[Arisaka Hunter]

A good book I found about the battle of Maiwand and the roll the Burkshire regiment had at that battle is Into the Jaws of Death by Lieutenant Colonel Mike Snook.