Enfield No4(T) "Trials Rifle" scope brackets

[jmoore]

Are there any peculiarities or markings that are known to be unique to the Enfield conversions or did they just use what became the production bracket?
Enfield seemed to put their mark on every other part they fitted, so why not this one?

A S/N on the bracket seems to me to be no reliable proof that it was mated to the rifle at the beginning, since those numbers were apparently added quite a few years later. I'm not even altogether sure that the scope number on the wrist was something that was applied from day one... but it seems to be a feature quickly adopted and for good reason.

Just trying to nail down a bit more info on the early rifles...

An example w/ the 4BA cheese headed cradle screws would be grand to see, but could have this feature been changed / upgraded later on whilst still in service?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[limpetmine]

Interesting question, and one I have interest in as well. What did the early pads look like; were they the same as the later H&H pads? I've got (as already seen here) a Trials that needs a little work....
Anybody got a lead on a really good 'smith?

[Peter Laidler]

I have mentioned this before but the earliuest brackets, possibly the two original Bren ones that fitted into a 'stem' that went into the dovetail were fitted with 4BA cheeseheaded screws. This has been corroborated recently by the design office sketches. This problem was mentioned in some original comments (by none other than Major Reginald Shepherd....... this name ring any bells.....?) who was a Enfield at the time, that the cradle screws would tend to 'buckle' the telescope tube if not keyed correctly. Using modern language, he'd mean that they'd crush the tube if not screwed up to the correct torque! This is this belief that leads me to suggest that maybe several of the first Enfield trials rifles used cheeseheaded screws too but I could not say this for certain.

Suffice it to say, on production, the 'new' taper-lock screws were used so that it was impossible to over load them and thereafter, to crush the tube. Talking of this, just be warned that if you DO crush the tube at the cradle caps, you are well and truly, er........., what's the word I'm looking for? Ah, yes, knackered..... because you have effectively sealed in place the erector cell......... for good! These taper lock screws were first used to prevent cracking in alloy housings in the 30's, then made their way onto the Boys rifle, then the No4T telescope cradle caps and seem to have died a death afterwards.

Anyway, where were we........? Ah yes, my only comment on variable trials brackets.

The No4T's we used as slave jigs at out Base Workshops did have the cradle caps slightly bored out with flat-end milling cutters simply in order to use simple 4BA allen bolts while mounting and dismounting telescopes quickly. But while we were doing it, the notion of crushing tubes wasn't a matter of concern.

There, another post-a-not-so-quick reply full of useless Enfield information

[jmoore]

Interesting question, and one I have interest in as well. What did the early pads look like; were they the same as the later H&H pads?

The front pad on Enfield conversions is just a little different in details from the production H&H, but it functions the same. Fitting the new one properly is the bother, refer to some of Peter Laidler's descriptions in this forum!

[Badger]

Interesting question, and one I have interest in as well. What did the early pads look like; were they the same as the later H&H pads?

Although off topic from a scope bracket point of view, as far as the pads discussion goes, here's some pics I quickly put together on that area. I'll try to get some pics posted later today, of the scope brackets and screws for these two "Trials" rifles below.

With thanks for the research analysis and assistance of Advisory Panel members Lance and Roger Payne, here's a England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here) entry showing the one we have here, complete with some faked parts ...

1933 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper "Trials Rifle" Serial # A0507
(Converted by RSAF Enfield)
c/w matching 1943 Model No.32 Mk.1 Scope Serial # 2597
(Mfg by William Watson & Son)

1933 No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper "Trials Rifle" (click here) .....

Marked on top with Crown over ??/E = RSAF Enfield Toolroom, Middlesex (Government Factory, used on toolroom inspection, special models or initial production). One of our Advisory Panel members commented "The front pad screws are replacements - at least the middle & rear ones. Look at them from the inner aspect of the receiver as well as 'face on'.

Note the "faked" Enfield rear sight ... More details on that are covered in the Knowledge Library entry for this rifle.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)


(Click PIC to Enlarge)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

============================================

Here's another "Trials" rifles that's currently being analyzed by members of the Advisory Panel. Once complete, a new entry for it will be added to the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library. Note the correctly marked Enfield rear sight, as compared to the 1933 Trials rifle currently displayed in the Knowledge Library.

1931 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper "Trials Rifle" Serial # A2041
(Converted by RSAF Enfield)
c/w matching Model No.32 Mk.1 Scope Serial # 3503
(Mfg by H.B.M. Co.)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Badger

[jmoore]

The lower one has a bit less miles on the front pad and better shows some distinctive features to the trials conversions.

[jmoore]

Back to the brackets. Whilst in the woods the past couple of days, aside from pondering how to take over the world (Narf!), it occurred to me that the reason that pretty much all the trials rifles I've seen have higher than expected scope S/Ns may be due to the fact that the first scopes issued were so often damaged by over zealous tightening of the cradle screws that the units were pulled and replaced w/ the improved version.

Pure speculation, and unless someone comes up w/ a trials rifle w/ a UIC or a Watson under S/N 1200 (like the MKL entry had at one point), it'll be hard to prove.

BTW The family heirloom muzzle loader took a coyote and a squirrel during the TN Christmas, so I'm tickled!


ETA The MKL entry apparent.ly had No32 S/N 1161 assigned at one point

[Peter Laidler]

You mention Watson scope number 1200 J-M (that's the 200th Watson scope incidentally) but I have somewhere, away at the publishers (of a forthcoming monster tome Bren book at the moment,) a list of the telescopes set aside and earmarked for the Bren gun. And it seems as though MOST of the first 6,000 or so, with a few exceptions were stored awaiting the ill fated and never-to-arrive Bren telescope mounts.

However, some of the early production WERE earmarked for the rifle ....or certainly were used on the No4trials rifles because I have Watson 1070 (the 70th) from a trials rifle used and broken up during cold weather trials.

It would just seem to me, (and there's no evidence that I can find to substantiate this, unless Roger Payne has something from his numerical quantifications,) that after the first No4T trials rifles got their later telescopes, in the 6000 number range, that the earlier Bren designated scopes were handed over for the No4T's. Does all that make any sense? I'll have to read it again...................

[jmoore]

Most enlightening, actually! I have seen your posts concerning the BREN No32s, but wasn't sure that they actually were squirreled away for any length of time. The new info ought to clear up some questions concerning regular production No4(T)s w/ "early" scopes that seem rather out of sequence.

It does not, however, solve the question of whether Enfield trials brackets are at all different from standard production (even in tiny details)... So the "fun" continues!

[Roger Payne]

DPL,
Afraid I can't shed any more light on the 'Bren No32's' but what you say seems entirely feasible & likely to have been the case, to me anyway.

Have never seen any different brackets to Dalgleish & Rose Bros., types that were definitely original, although when Charnwood bought up a load of tat from BAe there were some part finished brackets amongst them, which Tony Hallam insisted they (Charnwood) had nothing to do with. I still have a couple somewhere although am genuinely unsure of them. ?Maybe just possibly Thamesbank Engineering?, or just a post-war copy?? I'll try & find them out & show them to you....

ATB