Telescope, Observing, Sniper's C MK 1

[Nigel]

Not something you see every day, especially not three of them. Rescued from a skip in the UK - scope no.'s 165-C, 230-C & 439-C and all made in 1944 - all in immaculate condition. When rescued the cases and stands were left in the skip - not by me I hasten to add! Much easier to use than the Sct Rgt Scopes and at 25 magnification better at 1,000 yards. The Stand Instrument C No.47 Mk1 - is numbered 58-C, made in 1945 and is an engineering masterpiece in the way it folds up and operates. The case to hold the scope is also made in 1945 and if you look carefully is numbered 439-C which matches one of the scopes. I very much doubt if they were meant to be matched - my thanks to a forum member for supplying me the case - he shall remain un-named to protect his privacy but I would be delighted if he sees this post and makes his claim to fame. All I need now is two more cases and stands!

Information

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[Surpmil]

These are fully described in "Without Warning", pps. 49-50. I'll precis it here:

Order by Canadian Army Technical Development Board to Research Enterprises Ltd. "to assemble a 20 power observer's scope" to replace obsolete Tel. Sct. Regt., on 2nd Sept. 1943.

"Experiments at REL showed that a better observer scope could be manufactured inexpensively [from existing components] and on 30th Nov. 1943 four single draw scopes were ordered from REL"

"By the end of Feb. 1944 user trials had been completed on the four 25x scopes and reports were "most encouraging".

A variable 10-20-30-40x scope project was ongoing concurrently and samples of each were forwarded to the UK for testing in March 1944.

May 1944, "another 25x scope was sent to the UK".

"Meanwhile the British Small Arms School performed a comparative trial between the Canadian 25x and the Ross Watcher telescope [a commercial Ross stalking telescope]. Their conclusions were that while the Canadian scope provided better definition at dusk and at dawn it was found not to be as quick or efficient at locating targets at short ranges. It was also found to be heavier and bulkier than the current Scout Regiment scope."

"The Canadian response was that the trial did not take into account the waterproofing qualities of the scope or its [lower] cost of manufacture when compared to either the Scout Regiment or Ross Watcher scopes."

They might have asked why it was trialed against a commercial Ross telescope that was obviously optically and probably mechanically superior to the service patterns! As for locating targets "at short ranges", I always understood the telescope was intended for longer ranges...

I'll be interested to hear whether you think the REL TOS is "heavier and bulkier" than a Scout Regiment scope.

"In spite of British concerns, Canada ordered 500 of the 25x Observer Telescope. In April 1945, during the closing days of the war in Europe, the Small Arms Liason [Committee?] Notes reported that the "Telescope, Scout Regiment...will not be a basic part of the sniping equipment; binoculars may be issued in lieu." This decision effectively halted further consideration of the Canadian observer's scope whose purpose was to be an alternative to the Scout Regiment scope."

"An ingenious folding stand for the observer's scope was developed by Captain Gartshore of the Directorate of Vehicles and Small Arms. Unfortunately nothing else is known of this officer..."

"In spite of negative British comments about both the construction and utility of the folding stand an order for 500 of these was placed with REL."

Similar little games were played over the consideration of the REL C67 telescopic sight to prevent it being properly trialed, as detailed on pps. 62-64.

"The War Office changed the General Service specifications for either the scope, mount or rifle several times with the result that the REL scopes [3.5x and 5x] were never fully compliant and could not be considered. One change in specifications made in March 1945 called for any new scope to be mounted on the left side of the rifle. The initial Canadian assumption was that this was to accomodate the new 7.92mm semiautomatic rifle then in the plannng stages in the U.K....they discovered that this was not the case, and that the justification was "for strength, compactness and to obtain a low silhouette".

There's plenty more there, but I'm out of time...

[Alan de Enfield]

Is the skip still there ?

[Surpmil]

I'd agree that that the tripod is "an engineering masterpiece." It can be used with the legs fully extended or folded to half height as you have it in the photos. It can be set even lower by undoing the knurled knob at the bottom of the central shaft, allowing the shaft to hinge in the middle and be dropped right down to its top. The collar on the shaft has a simple compression lever that allows it to be slid anywhere up and down the shaft and then locked. This allows the user to traverse the telescope on the same plane. The knurled screw under the telescope cradle gives fine adjustment for angle via a worm screw through probably about 90 degrees of combined elevation and depression. The telescope clamps are spring loaded and of course work just as well with other types of telescope. And of course, it can be locked in one position with the knurled knob set in the casting at the top of the legs.

Mine worked just fine and it had been well used for decades in the Canadian Army before being surplused off.

I regret trading it off for a No32 Mk3 years ago as I've never seen another shooting scope tripod that came close to it for features and practicality. The whole thing folded up into a package about 7" long and weighed less than half a pound I'd guess.

Badger, you might want to add some photos of yours with legs extended sometime: 1944 Canadian Telescope, Observing, Sniper's Cmk1 - Military Surplus Collectors Forums ?

[Roger Payne]

Nige,
I've got a case in the loft somewhere, but I think I'll have to try to turn up something to persuade you to relinquish one of the scopes!

ATB

[Badger]

If we get enough of these posted, maybe we'll be able to find matching serial numbers scopes and tripods, although they were never matched originally ....

With thanks to stencollector, check the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

1944 Canadian Telescope, Observing, Sniper's Cmk1 (click here)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Here's another one that we haven't even added to the MKL yet ....

1944 REL C Mk1 Observers Scope 428C (click here)

Regards,
Badger

[Surpmil]

If the wing nut is undone, (on side not shown above) the top rail can be slid down to one end, reducing the overall length to a little more than that of the legs and central shaft.

[m4carbine]

Is there anyone out there with a Tripod for sale? I will pay pretty close to stupid money for one.

I am writing a book about sniper rifles and need one to round out the Canadian section.

I would even rent on if need be.

Let me know
Marty
info@badgerordnance.com

[Lance]

Salter had one for sale a week or two ago. It went so fast I never even saw the asking price. They do pop up from time to time, good luck!

[Nigel]

Salter had one for sale a week or two ago. It went so fast I never even saw the asking price. They do pop up from time to time, good luck!

Salter - new name to me - where are they and do they have a website?
many thanks