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    Ross article in the March,2010 American Rifleman

    Guys and Gals:
    My latest American Rifleman magazine describes the donation of a pristine M-10 Ross by gunwriter Jim Carmichel to the National Firearms Museum. While the donation is commendable, the article implies that shooting a Ross is about as safe as handling a grenade with the pin removed. There was a hang tag on the rifle stating that in 1915 a Wyoming hunting guide named Pete Nordquist was horribly mutilated when the bolt flew back and rearranged his face. It was stated that the bolt was found some 20 yards away. No other corroboration, of course. The rifle, as I said, is in excellent condition. One would think that the bolt stop and receiver would really be damaged after such an episode. I have a hint there is nothing to this tale and that it shows the truism that todays gunwriters are guilty of repeating the old misinformation of past gunwriters. Any thoughts?
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    a few

    I read the same article with interest, and saw three or so very nice unmolested Ross's at Louisville last weekend, and looked at them with that article in mind. Having read much of the tale of the Ross in WWI, and it's troubled past, I would not shoot one of these.
    Sort of reminds me of that new show Pawn Stars. Those rubes think they have to shoot everything they want to buy, as if that makes it more valuable. A Brown Bess of 1776 vintage is no more valuable if it is fired, and perhaps damaged as a result.
    My take, for what it's worth.

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    I'm calling shennigans on the story!
    1. The photo shows no damage at all to the receiver bridge where the bolt-stop fits...even if the bolt-stop tab was left in the horizontal position, there would have been damage.
    2. The author claims to have alerted Ross, which reportedly caused a change to be made- no changes were made right out to the time the Canadianicon Gov't seized the Factory from Sir Charles.
    3. There's an ongoing discussion over on RossRifle.com on this very topic, and it appears that a lot of the claims may have resulted from hangfires, not engineering.Check it out.

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    Ross Rifle bolts

    Exerpt taken from "The mechanism of the Ross Service Rifle", Gale and Polden Ltd, Aldershot, booklet for the Home Guard approximately 1942. The full booklet has been submitted for a post on the Ross Rifle Forum.


    TO REPLACE THE BOLT

    Ensure that the lever of the safety catch is fully to the rear. Swing bolt stop arm outwards until it is nearly horizontal. Hold bolt lever {the bolt handle} in right hand and with other hand pull out bolt head until locking lug is centrally covered off by arm of the extractor. (Note. --the bolt head turns automatically when pulled outwards.) Engage the groove found on each side and near the bottom of bolt with the guide provided on each side of bolt ways and push bolt fully home. Swing up bolt stop.

    THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART ....my italics

    NOTE: When the breech is open the rear of the bolt head should be about one inch from the sleeve. If it is only about 1/4 inch, the bolt has been wrongly assembled and the rifle should not be used, but taken to the armourer.

    .
    Last edited by buffdog; 07-21-2010 at 08:13 AM.

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    I just went into the bathroom and looked in the mirror. My face is still ugly as ever, but it's all there. I have been shooting ROSS Rifles since the early 1960s. I still have all my fingers, both eyes and both cheekbones.

    I have NO idea how many times I have written this, but I will do it again.

    It is POSSIBLE to assemble the bolts of both the Model 1905 and Model 1910 ROSS Rifles in such fashion that they will not lock. With the 1905 model, this is very difficult to do and it is very nearly impossible to insert into the rifle; even then, it will not reciprocate on the action: it is stuck solid.

    With the 1910 model, it is much easier to assemble the bolt incorrectly, provided that the bolt is not a military bolt which has been 'pinned'. A 'pinned' bolt, 99% of the time, can NOT be assembled wrong. An original unpinned bolt MAY be assembled wrong and will function in the rifle. That said, kindly re-read BUFFDOG's post (above). CHECKING the bolt for correct assembly requires but a single glance. CORRECTING a mis-assembled bolt takes about 1 minute.

    The bolts CAN NOT get out of whack while they are in the rifle. They REQUIRE human intervention in order to make them dangerous and this human intervention must take place while the bolt is removed from the rifle. A correctly-assembled bolt in a ROSS Rifle is about twice as safe (in a Model 1905) as the bolt in a 98 Mauser. A correctly-assembled bolt in a Model 1910 ROSS action is of unknown strength for the simple reason that it just is not possible to build more than 125,000 pounds per square inch pressure with the powders we have available.... and they have been TESTED at that pressure and held together.

    Properly assembled, a ROSS Rifle is SAFER than almost any other rifle ever made. It is ALSO more accurate than almost any other rifle ever made.

    Most of the World War One-period tales are myth, propagated to get the ROSS Rifle OUT of Service. When the ROSS went, by Haig's order, the Britishicon gunmaking industry had another quarter-million rifles to build, the 'colonials' (us) were put in their place.... and Conservative Prime Minister Robert Borden was able to get rid of his own Minister of Militia Sir Sam Hughes, who may have been erratic and enthusiastic but ALSO was dedicated to 'his' Army and utterly incorruptible as well as brilliant.

    It is an ugly story, filled with Imperial and Canadianicon politics and it does not make nice reading.

    For what it's worth, my own evaluation agrees with that of Capt. George Dibblee, DCM, (5th Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles), who told me, "The Ross Rifle was unpopular due to its length and weight. You couldn't get into a dugout with your rifle slung. ..... We had NO trouble with our rifles, but, then, we kept our rifles CLEAN, unlike some outfits that never cleaned their equipment."

    For me, that pretty much sums it up.

    I'm going to the range again, day after tomorrow.... with a couple of Rosses.
    Last edited by smellie; 07-24-2010 at 05:49 AM. Reason: correct really stupid error

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    The Ross was retained and issued as a sniper rifle long after the service rifles were withdrawn from front line service. A testament to their accuracy. They were well regarded by the snipers when used in conjunction with good quality ammo. I think many of the problems were ammo related and really had nothing to do with the rifles. The mythology of the Ross and it's supposed problems has been perpetrated over and over again since WW1. I reckon it's here to stay. Fortunately for we who like them; it's just that, "mythology".

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    To tell the truth, I don't really mind this old canard being brought up. All it does is keep the price of Ross rifles down at an affordable level. I had previously tried to correct a few folks regarding this error, but they insisted on believing what they had read from somewhere. The saying "Never believe everything you read" was countered with "Never believe everything you hear, either."

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    Go, Smellie!

    I too am afflicted with Ross Disease. Years ago when I got interested in Ross rifles, I sought out and purchased The Ross Rifle Story and devoured it. After that, I've never looked back.

    Thanks for the stalwart defense of one of my favorite rifles. I shot my M-1905 this afternoon at the range. Too bad there weren't other shooters there. I always bring something unusual and regularly get a "what the hell is that?" One time with a different Ross, the answer to what I was shooting brought a comment about "damned thing's gonna' blow up on ya'" to which I replied ... "Well, it hasn't yet, has it?" and then let off a round. The guys eyes got as big as saucers and he retreated to a "safe" distance. I kept shooting and he finally tired of waiting for my head to go bouncing along the ground.

    Tomorrow I will shoot a M-10 with a Porter that was converted to .30-06! At 100 yards, you just take a 6:00 o'clock hold and gently squeeze the trigger. Puts it right in the middle ... as long as I remember to do MY part!

    I have to agree though ... all the bad publicity has sure allowed me to buy a goodly number of them over the years. Hope the rumor mill keeps pumping out the propaganda!

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    Excellent associated article ...

    Knowledge Library - Ross M-10 Rifle Bolt Disassembly

    Regards,
    Badger

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    NFM Donation Recalls Unique, Troubled Ross Rifles

    The Ross uniquely represents the inventiveness and intrigue that so often accompany stories from its era.

    By Brian C. Sheetz, Senior Executive Editor

    Like any serious rifle enthusiast determined to establish a reference "library" of firearms, Jim Carmichel cultivated an instinct about certain guns that he felt would enhance his collection. In his position as shooting editor of Outdoor Life magazine, Carmichel was responsible for dispensing advice about guns, shooting and hunting to millions of readers, having taken over the job in 1971 while in his early thirties from no less a rifle and hunting authority than Jack O'Connor. So when it came to sporting rifles, even the obscure and unusual, Carmichel was always willing to add a worthy example to his collection.

    One such rifle was the Ross straight-pull sporter. The Model 10, chambered in .280 Ross, was accompanied by a warning in the form of a handwritten tag that hints of a dark chapter in the story of Ross military and sporting rifles. Carmichel acquired it many years ago from a fellow rifle collector and former NRA president, the late Richard Riley, with whom he shared more than a passion for guns. The friends were equally devoted to the preservation of Second Amendment rights-Carmichel himself served on the NRA's board of directors for a dozen years. So, recently, when Carmichel began to notice that too many rifles had taken up residence in his office, he decided to divest himself of portions of his hard-earned collection. He donated the Ross to a much larger gun library: the National Firearms Museum.

    Now in his seventies and retired from the magazine, Carmichel explained, "I had quite a few rifles to start with" before accepting the job at Outdoor Life. "If you were to look at my gun collection now what you'd see is a bunch of old guns." So when he decided to sell off "just a couple of hundred of them," he "cleaned out the corners" and, fortunately for the legions of NRA members who are also rifle cranks, the Ross was among them. It can now be seen along with many other treasures at the NFM in Fairfax, Va., Sundays through Fridays 9:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. and Saturdays 9:30 a.m. to 7 p.m.

    The rifle Carmichel donated is a sporting model of the Ross straight-pull design. Few guns could have better served the purpose as a reference piece. The Ross uniquely represents the inventiveness and intrigue that so often accompany stories from its era. It was one of several iterations developed and promoted by a wealthy, flamboyant Scottish engineer named Sir Charles Ross, who, at the turn of the last century, had been endeavoring to market a straight-pull sporting rifle to American shooters when he saw much greater potential for success making and selling a military model to the Canadian government.

    Ross developed several revisions, Marks I, II and III, that, from the outset, exhibited numerous parts failures and malfunctions up to and including bolts that, for a variety of reasons including incorrect reassembly, could detach themselves from their receivers at particularly inopportune moments, such as during firing, or seize within them while cycling. The bolt's complex design included helically arranged threads on its body that meshed with corresponding threads in its sleeve to rotate it, and locking lugs that resembled the angled threads of a cannon breech.

    Despite success as a target rifle, the military Ross gained such an unenviable reputation as a widow maker in the mean and dirty business of combat between Canadians and Germans fighting in the trenches of Europe during World War I that its inventor lost considerable national respect. He left Canadaicon, little reputation remaining, for the relative anonymity of America, where he died in 1942.

    The donated Ross exhibits remarkable care in its manufacture and blueing. Unfortunately, any romanticism that shouldering it conjures up is quickly lost after reading its accompanying tag. As Carmichel said, "It tells the story of the rifle pretty well." The tag reads:

    "Very Dangerous. Given to me by Ross in 1915 - fired by my guide Pete Nordquist at a Grizzly in the Teton Range - the bolt shot out backwards and tore the side of his face away from the mouth to the ear - the bolt was picked up 20 yards back. I reported this and all later models had different bolt action - as several other people had same accident. .280 Ross Rifle N. Whitehouse.*


    Carmichel surmised, "The owner must have been an important person to have been ‘given' a rifle by the Ross company." Indeed, that possibility exists, but subsequent Internet research by NFM Senior Curator Doug Wicklund, while confirming a listing for Pete Nordquist as a hunting guide headquartered in Wyoming prior to the accident's date, shed no further light on the identity of the rifle's owner who penned the note.
    While looking for something on an old drive I came across a reference to this article and decided to dig a little further. It turns out there was a .280 M10 blowback incident in Wyoming, in 1916, but the victim's name was Jack Hancock, not Pete Nordquist. There was indeed a guide and dude ranch operator named Peter Nordquist, and he had a brother Lawrence who seems to have been in the same business at times.

    Anyway, Mr. Whitehouse, whoever he was, either got the names of his guides mixed up, or decided to appropriate the story somehow.

    The State of Wyoming has a fine collection of online historical newspapers which you can consult for free (Three cheers for Wyoming!), and that is the source of these.

    There were more details on the continuation of the article, but unfortunately that page is not available. What there is does tell us that Mr. Hancock was cleaning the M10 the night before...did he perhaps rotate the bolthead into an unsafe position?

    It's possible that he was going to lead a hunt for Mr. Whitehouse and it was the latter's rifle which he sent on ahead of him to Hancock, but the article doesn't read that way - unless such details were on the second page that is missing. (There was a Norman O. Whitehouse in New Haven Conn. who seems to have been well to do and may have known Sir Charles Ross during the latter's time there.)

    Pete Nordquist got plenty of mentions in the papers of the teens and early 20s by the way, but nothing about any accident with a rifle.

    Incidentally, a few days ago, I inspected an M10 which had blown back, injuring a man's eye. The rifle's stock was badly broken in two places. The owner of the rifle had loaned it to someone who messed about with it and it was then loaned to another man without being inspected. Turned out to be one of those earlier M10s with the sloping end to the extractor slot in the bolt head, allowing the bolt head to be improperly rotated and re-inserted into the rifle. Something which always takes quite a bit of effort from my experience and that of others I've discussed this with.

    It's probably safe to say there were more of these incidents with the M10 than is generally known.

    * It's not obvious on first reading, but we may be mistaken in assuming that this note is claiming that the SAME Ross M10 was the Hanckock/Nordquist rifle. The condition of the Whitehouse rifle clearly indicates that it was never blown back. Whitehouse may have been trying to say that the same TYPE of rifle was fired by Hancock/Nordquist; the phrasing does not completely exclude that possibility. Whitehead may have just mixed up the names of the two men, one or both of whom may indeed been his guide(s) in Wyoming at some point. There is another possibility as well: the Whitehouse rifle is the replacement rifle given by Ross in exchange for the damaged one, in which case we just have a mix up with the names and the year; quite possible if the note was written decades later when Whitehouse was a much older man considering what might become of the rifle after he died or sold it. Ross is known to have at least offered exchanges for a new rifle in several such cases.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 06-14-2020 at 01:07 PM. Reason: Footnote
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

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