Headspace question.

[GBinSC]

I have a Savage No.4 Mk1* that will close on the NO GO gauge, but not the field gauge. I assumed that it was safe to shoot, but there is a slight bulge on the fired cases. Would you shoot it?

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[Edward Horton]

Your Enfield passed its military head space check BUT your worried because your civilian commercial American SAAMI cases have a bulge.

This problem started after the British burned Washington DC and has never been totally solved, but do not blame the British Enfield Rifle when shooting American commercial ammunition or cases. Also please notice our American game of Football and Baseball also have different rules and point scoring methods than the British and Commonwealth nations.

What you need to understand is American commercial .303 cases are not made to the heavy duty standards of military cases and this applies to ANY commercial cartridge fired in a military chamber


Below, once fired .303 cases from the same Enfield, guess which case is built to military standards and is over .010 (ten thousandths thicker in the base web area at the bottom of the case.

Below the true story of "The Battle of the Bulge"



The thickness and grade of brass is what controls "The Battle of the Bulge" and it is normal for this to happen with commercial ammunition fired in military chambers. Normally military chambers are larger in diameter than commercial chambers and military cases are made thicker to withstand their larger chambers.

Please post some photos of your fired cases to give us a better idea of what is happening.

[ireload2]

I would shoot it but exercise due diligence if you reload it.

[Parashooter]

Actually the Greek HXP brass shown was probably produced for military use and the Serbian Prvi Partizan brass made for the commercial market. (And neither of them has much to do with "American commercial ammunition or cases".)

For the benefit of new readers, our friend Mr. Horton has reported disappointing results with some brands of .303 brass and seems to enjoy condemning all US-made .303 cases. This doesn't necessarily mean there are genuine problems with either the SAAMI specifications or all US-made .303 brass. Lots of handloaders have had satisfactory results with .303 brass from Winchester and Remington production. Like nearly anything manufactured in large quantity at low cost, there's enough variation in quality and dimensions that occasional problems occur with all manufacturers' production - whether it's American cartridge cases or Japanese automobiles.

If we actually examine the SAAMI .303 cartridge specs, we see that they call for a maximum base diameter of .4601" with a tolerance of .008" under that (.4521"). Cartridges made near the maximum base diameter show very little bulge fired in the minimum .462" chamber specified in both the SAAMI and British drawings below. Cartridges at the low end of the tolerance range and/or fired in a chamber significantly larger than the SAAMI maximum .464" major diameter can show a nasty-looking bulge - but with decent metallurgy and normal .303 pressure (45K c.u.p. per SAAMI) it's no real cause for worry unless expansion exceeds about .015" ahead of the solid web.

[tbonesmith]

I'd shoot it, but pick up and install a bolt head that gives tighter headspace when one presented itself.

[Edward Horton]

In the United States we have commercial cases and we have military cases, the commercial cases are thinner and lighter and the military cases are heavier and more robustly made.

Commercial American cartridges cases were not designed to shoot in longer and fatter military chambers, Mr. Parashooter and myself have different opinions, this is due to the fact that Parashooter greases or oils his ammunition when he fires it and I keep my ammunition and chamber completely dry and free of all oil and grease products.

Also when a Prvi Partizan case has a larger base diameter and is over .010 thicker than a Remington or Winchester case I call it military grade. The proof of this is in the measuring of these cases with highly accurate gauges and comparing them to U.S. made military cases.

Below, commercial American case on the left and military .303 case on the right.



The new Prvi Partizan .303 cases are even thicker than the military cases pictured below. You will also see below that the factory loaded Winchester case on the left has a more pronounced ring around the base than the thicker military case.





My main point being here is the British Enfield Rifle did not go through testing trials using American SAAMI commercial designed cases with smaller head space standards than the British military.

As I said before Parashooter you can't have it both ways and grease your cases with caster oil and then tell people the person with the dry chamber is wrong.

[jmoore]

Its like "Flintstones" or "Hogan's Heroes" reruns....

Can't watch it -again!

There ought to be an "automatic thread generator" or something- "Auto redirect"

[jmoore]

GBinSC, sorry! You've managed to set things in motion that just won't reach any happy conclusion.
(Use the search function in this forum to see what I mean...)

Your rifle is fine, it has a largish diameter chamber to allow it to function in the worst conditions. As long as the brass remains intact for ONE firing then the military was satisfied. Its a Military weapon, not a pampered target rifle being fed a diet of custom reloaded brass. Be happy, and shoot it a bunch!

[Edward Horton]

Its like "Flintstones" or "Hogan's Heroes" reruns....

Can't watch it -again!

There ought to be an "automatic thread generator" or something- "Auto redirect"

Mr. jmoore

The most complaints generated by the Enfield Rifle are related to head space because people are shooting American made SAAMI cartridge cases.

Your comments about "Its like "Flintstones" or "Hogan's Heroes" reruns...." are even more insulting than parashooters comments.

My gauges don't lie Mr. jmoore nor do my photos, the closest you will get today to American "Lake City" military grade cases is by buying Prvi Partizan cases.



Mr. jmoore do you see any bright rings or bulges on the fired factory loaded Prvi Partizan cases below?



Now tell me Mr. jmoore why is it our American manufactures don't even know where to put the shoulder of the British .303 case or why these Winchester cases bulged far more than the Prvi Partizan cases and only lasted for three reloadings.
(Could it be Corporate profits and a cheaper grade brass)



The answer Mr. jmoore has NOTHING to do with the "Flintstones" or "Hogan's Heroes".

[jmoore]

"All in the Family"?

SO is his dadgummed rifle safe to shoot? Eh? What?