Winchester Model 12 navy, need help with ID, value.

[Texwing]

Hello, I recently got a few guns out of an old collection and could not resist picking up this Model 12, it was in great shape and had all kinds of military markings as the pics show in part, including cartouches. Serial number makes for a production date of 1942, althought the 1942 Carrier Yorktown was sunk at Midway, so the Yorktown property stickers must have been a later boat...
Anyway, this Model 12 has been rebarrelled at some point (much less wear on the finish) to a 28 inch full choke barrel.

So, I am wondering if this gun might have started life as a trench gun of some sort, and if so it might be possible to get it back (correctly) to its earlier state..I have not had a military shotgun before so I will appreciate any help, including value and whether to leave it as is or try to track down a correct barrel assembly. I am assuming it was rebarreled for skeet shooting off the fantail, but I dont know. Thanks in advance for any help.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Texwing]

Well, I did a little more reading, I think I have an original riot gun, while the barrel blueing is less worn than the reciever, the barrel is stamped "41" underneath at the chamber end, and the 922xxx serial number seems correct. Both barrel and reciever have a P over W stamp in a circle, so the barrel seems original to the gun, I did not know any of these guns used a full choke and a longer 28 inch barrel.. This shotgun also has a stock swivel, but then also a rather home made looking upper swivel that I should take a picture of and post to see if it is what should be on the gun...

[Tom Doniphon]

IMO, the serial number is too low for it to have been a US Military contract riot or trench gun. The Model 12 riot guns are mostly in the 970,xxx serial number range, and the serials for the trench guns are even higher.

All the Military Model 12s are factory marked on the right side of the receiver under the ejection port with a "US" and flaming bomb. There is also a small hand stamped flaming bomb on the top of the barrel next to the Winchester proof mark. The Military guns also have buttstock marks. The vast majority of the riot guns have a WB mark and crossed cannons mark on the buttstock while the trench guns have GHD stock cartouches and crossd cannon marked buttstocks.

[emmagee1917]

Yorktown , Va. is a city and not a ship. This shotgun was prob'ly never on it , though it might have waved at it if it sailed by. Yorktown was an ordnance loading port for the navy , so there MAY be a navy conection at some point. It could also be an army gun that got shipped to Yorktown sometime in the last 60 years. Long bbl full choked shotguns were used by the military for aerial anti-aircraft training as well as recreational use and are a collectable in thier own right. Clean it and enjoy it for what it is , don't screw it up trying to make it something it never was.
Chris

[ldp9b]

Just to toss in a cookie, Yorktown WAS also the site of a Navy or USMC brig. Camp Peary. Don't ask how I know but if location and Navy Brigs have anything to do with it then that'll muddy the waters of conjecture a bit

[Texwing]

Yorktown , Va. is a city and not a ship. This shotgun was prob'ly never on it , though it might have waved at it if it sailed by. Yorktown was an ordnance loading port for the navy , so there MAY be a navy conection at some point. It could also be an army gun that got shipped to Yorktown sometime in the last 60 years. Long bbl full choked shotguns were used by the military for aerial anti-aircraft training as well as recreational use and are a collectable in thier own right. Clean it and enjoy it for what it is , don't screw it up trying to make it something it never was.
Chris

Well I agree, but as a "collectable in its own right" I can find nothing on the internet about these guns at all-zero! By the way my pics did not show the USN painted in yellow on the stock, so its pretty clear the navy had it at some point. Everything except the barrel says riot gun, has correct cartouches, even has the 41 stamped on underside of barrel, its just a long barrel. thanks for the help

[emmagee1917]

...the long bbl guns and the riots were:

made at the same factory
made around the same time
inspected by the same people
stamped by the same people and stamps and machinery
served in the same military
treated the same
served thier country the same
and are both a part of the same history.

Any surprises here? I'm just saying you have a nice orig. collectable there. Cutting down the orig bbl will not make it an orig riot. Replacing the bbl with a short one will not make it an orig. riot. The internet is not a know-all of info. Buy , beg , or borrow one of Canfield's or Poyer's shotgun books.

Chris

[Texwing]

...the long bbl guns and the riots were:

made at the same factory
made around the same time
inspected by the same people
stamped by the same people and stamps and machinery
served in the same military
treated the same
served thier country the same
and are both a part of the same history.

Any surprises here? I'm just saying you have a nice orig. collectable there. Cutting down the orig bbl will not make it an orig riot. Replacing the bbl with a short one will not make it an orig. riot. The internet is not a know-all of info. Buy , beg , or borrow one of Canfield's or Poyer's shotgun books.

Chris

Chris, do you happen to know, do either of these books actually cover the long barreled shotguns? If so I will gladly get a copy.

[emmagee1917]

...I'd say Cainfield's book would be the one you'd want. Covers all makers and styles.
Chris

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Texwing,

I have Bruce Canfiel's book "Complete Guide to COMBAT SHOTGUNS" and did some research on your gun.

The barrel date falls in line with your serial number. It appears that your gun was built from the beginning as a 'Training Gun' and never was a 'riot gun' or a 'trench gun'.

The M12 training guns are only mentioned on five different pages, but there is a section of the book that explains how the training shotguns from various companies were used. The Navy and the Army Air Force used them to train aerial machine gunners. They shot clay pigeons as practice and often mounted turrets on the top of trucks to have the gunners practice shooting clay pigeons from the moving trucks.

*** There’s an interesting photo in the book of sailors using Mod 11’s and they're shooting clay pigeons from the deck of the USS Yorktown!

Bruce Canfield doesn’t go into very much detail on each of the training guns, and states the scope of the book is about combat shotguns.

I had his book and was looking for information about a Remington Mod 11 I had been considering that had a long barrel. His book discussed it briefly, so I emailed him from his web site and he was very helpful. The seller of the shotgun I was looking at thought he had a long barrel Mod 11 ‘riot gun’ and was asking the price of a riot gun. With the Remington, the barrel is serialized to the receiver and Mr. Canfield told me to check if they matched and they did. The Mod 11 training gun was worth much less than a Mod 11 riot gun, even though they are exactly the same other than the barrel.
(Long story short, I used the book and eventually convinced the seller it wasn’t a 'riot gun', or 'trench gun', and I bought the training gun for about what Mr. Canfield said it was worth.)

Info from Mr. Canfield's Book –

Winchester records indicate they sold the government 61,014 M12’s from April, 1942 to March, 1944.
Serial numbers approximately 939,500 – 1,036,000

Chris is correct 100% about the production. Most of the M12’s were produced as trench guns, but there were many M12's produced as riots guns, and training guns at the same time. There weren’t any ‘blocks of numbers’ to distinguish them.

Your gun’s serial number, ‘922,xxx’ looks as if it would have been most likely produced in 1941, matching the ‘41’ on your barrel date.

I think you’ll enjoy Mr. Canfield book if you decide to get it. There’s a lot of interesting info, and knowledge is everything.

I hope this helps,
~ Harlan

PS -

Here are some photos of my Remington mod 11 training gun.
It's not a desirable trench gun, but these played a part in WWII history too.
Mr. Canfield told me that many people have cut the barrels off of these to make them look like trench guns, but the nomenclature stamped on them show they clearly are not, and the value is ruined as far as even being a training gun.