+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: AP vs Ball ammo

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Deceased May 2nd, 2020 Cosine26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    05-18-2020 @ 07:29 PM
    Location
    Cal
    Posts
    506
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:07 PM

    AP vs Ball ammo

    When the CMPicon offered for sale some Armor Piercing (AP) 30-06 ammunition, the question arose as to how hard would this ammo on barrels. In 1943 when it became obvious to the Ordnance department that 30M2AP was being used extensively by the ground forces (particularly in Europe where there was a lot of metal on the battle field) in lieu of Ball ,a series of tests were conducted to evaluate the difference between 30M2 Ball vs 30M2AP. The results of these Ordnance departments tests were cited in an article “AP vs Ball” by Edwards Brown Jr. in the May 1947 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.
    The army selected the following new weapons for the test:
    Two M1919A4 Machine guns
    Two M1icon rifles (with 4 groove barrels)
    Two M03A3 rifles (with 2 groove barrels)
    One lot of Ball and one lot of AP was used throughout t the test.
    Drop in accuracy was to be the criteria for wear indication. Each weapon would fire 6000 rounds. The MG’s were to be fired in 75-round bursts with the barrel water cooled after each burst. The rifles were fired at a rate of ~40 rounds-per-minute with water cooling after each 80 round sequence.
    The CMP ammo was identified as both US and foreign and could be corrosive and non-corrosive. I do not know how the foreign AP compares to the US 30M2AP so these results may not apply to the foreign AP ammo. Over the life cycle of the wartime 30M2 AP cores made of three different cores were used.
    A quick summary shows that :
    *For the MG wear was increased by 2.5% when AP was used in lieu of Ball.
    *For the M1, the wear was insignificant.
    *For the 03A3 , “Accuracy life of the 03A3 having two-groove barrels is decreased considerably by use of AP in place of Ball. Apparently AP ammunition causes considerably more wear in two-groove barrels than in four-groove barrels. Probably the reason for this is that the two-groove barrels displace much more bullet metal than do the four-groove barrels and the hard AP core makes the displacement more difficult.”(This is a direct quote)
    Hope this helps.
    If anyone would like a more detailed report of the findings I can post that. Just let me know.
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.
    Last edited by Cosine26; 05-15-2010 at 01:10 AM. Reason: omitted word

  2. Thank You to Cosine26 For This Useful Post:


  3. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  4. #2
    FREE MEMBER
    NO Posting or PM's Allowed
    Kirk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    05-19-2012 @ 03:18 PM
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    550
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:07 PM
    Very Interesting! Thanks for digging this up.

  5. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  6. #3
    Deceased May 2nd, 2020 Cosine26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    05-18-2020 @ 07:29 PM
    Location
    Cal
    Posts
    506
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:07 PM
    Thread Starter

    AP vs Ball Part 2

    AP vs Ball Part 2
    In 1943 when it became obvious to the Ordnance department that 30M2AP was being used extensively by the ground forces (particularly in Europe where there was a lot of metal on the battle field) in lieu of Ball ,a series of tests were conducted to evaluate the difference between 30M2 Ball vs 30M2AP. The results of these Ordnance departments tests were cited in an article “AP vs Ball” by Edwards Brown Jr. in the May 1947 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.
    The information for the M1919A4 MG is sparse ( It was reported atat a 2.5% increase was noted when using AP vs ball) but the report on the two rifles is fairly detailed. As previously reported, four rifles were selected for the test: two M1icon’s with four groove barrels and two 03A3’s with two-groove barrels. Two lots of ammo were selected for the entire test, one lot of AP and another Lot of Ball. The rifles were each fired 6000 rounds at a rate of fire of ~ 40 rounds per minute with the barrels being water cooled every eighty rounds.
    Definitions:
    AP = 30M2AP armor piercing ammo
    B = 30M2 Ball, ball ammo
    IV = Initial velocity at the beginning of the test
    EV = End velocity at the end of the test
    MR = Mean radius, army ordnance method of specifying accuracy
    ExSp =extreme spread in inches
    “I” proceeding indicates “initial”- “E” preceding indicates “ending”
    Each rifle was fired at the beginning and ending of the tests for three 10-shot groups at 600 yards and the MR, velocity at 78 feet, and Extreme Spread measured.
    *FOR THE M1 (4-groove BBL):
    Muzzle velocity measurement:
    Ball- IV 2699 fps- EV- 2661 fps- change = 38 fps
    AP – IV 2694 fps- EV 2616- change = 78 fps
    Accuracy Measurement:
    Mean Radius:
    Ball- I MR 9.7” – E MR 15.4” – Change 37%
    AP- I MR 9.3” – E MR 12.0” – change = 22.5%
    Extreme Spread
    Ball – I ExSp 29.1” – E ExSp 46.9” Change = 38.0 %
    AP- I ExSp 11.7” – E ExSp 15.7” –change = 27.0 %
    *FOR the 03A3 RIFLE (2-groove BBL):
    Ball-IV 2720 fps- EV 2655 fps _ change = 65 fps
    AP – IV 2644 fps – EV 2483 fps – change = 161 fps
    Accuracy Measurement:
    Mean Radius
    Ball – I MR - 8.1” – E MR – 10.2” –change = 20 %
    AP- I MR 7.6” – E MR 10.7” –change = 29.0%
    Extreme Spread
    B – I ExSp 21.3” – E ExSp 32.5” – change = 25.2%
    AP – I ExSp 23.i” – E ExSp 37.3” – change = 38 %
    War time specification for the acceptance of ammunition was:
    Ball MR = 7.5”
    AP = 10.00 “
    Despite the wide specification for AP ,the USMC when it resumed Intra Service competitions in 1946 found that while Ball was slightly more accurate up to 500 yard, beyond 500 yards AP was significantly more accurate. In 1944 the Ordnance department compiled the MR for the first and last lots of ammunition produced at the Denver Ordnance plant that year as follows:
    30M2AP
    Lot DEN 34470 and Lot 34570
    Average MR = 5.05”
    30M2 Ball
    Lot DEN 15650 and Lot 15750
    Average MR = 5.72 “
    There is no real correlation between group size and MR but a ‘rule of thumb’ says that group size is ~ 3 times MR.
    It has been a long time since I have fired any significant number of AP rounds but it used to be standard practice by the armorers I knew to fire three clips of AP through any re-barreled M1 to “smooth out the bore”. Remember when I was firing AP, barrels could be had through the DCM for: the 03 and the 03A4 for $5.30 and M1 barrels for &8.30.

  7. #4
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 01:16 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    29,838
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:07 PM
    I don't think you need all those figure to discuss barrel wear, I don't think YOU are going to notice any appreciable wear in your barrel from AP ammo. After all there's a brass jacket to cushion, not tungsten against steel. You're not going to fire exclusively AP anyway are you?

  8. #5
    Legacy Member Calif-Steve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    10-01-2023 @ 12:52 AM
    Posts
    2,508
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:07 PM
    A good friend, now passed on, shot in the 1950's. He told me they used 03-A3's and were issued AP ammo, and it was free. He stated a 2 groove barrel would last 18 months. When Garands became available the problem disappeared as the 4 groove barrel was different. These were his remarks, not mine.

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. .50" Browning M33 ball ammo............
    By Peter Laidler in forum Milsurps General Discussion Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-23-2010, 09:52 PM
  2. M2 Ball
    By noslack 327 in forum M1 Garand/M14/M1A Rifles
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-06-2009, 07:15 PM
  3. M-2 Ball ?
    By Irish Mick in forum M1 Garand/M14/M1A Rifles
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-28-2009, 03:10 PM
  4. Czech M43 Ball From Canada Ammo
    By Stevo in forum Milsurps General Discussion Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-30-2007, 01:06 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Raven Rocks