Ross PLY markings

[buffdog]

Has anyone deciphered the PLY markings on Ross M-10 rifles. I have seen or referenced at least 14 different Ross M-10s with PLY markings and different numbers stamped on them. I really don't think it stands for something like "Pakastani Light Yeomanry", but with so many rifles stamped with those numbers, it is a bit of a puzzle.

These are found on the Barrel, near the receiver ring.

There are also Ross M-10 rifles with PHAB stamped on them.

Can anyone solve this little mystery?

ADDENDUM: O.K., O.K. We are NOT talking about Ross M-10 Sporters here, We are talking about M-10 Military Ross .303 British Calibre rifles with the typical military markings on them that were apparently converted to a Sporter somewhere along the way. In addition, the ones I have seen have a "Not English Made" stamp and British proof marks. So far, the top number is PLY 6009, so if the series was started at 1000, then there had to be at least 5000 rifles that were converted.

Thank you for attempting to add to my education. While my first love is the SMLE and Lee Enfield Rifles, at several times during my 69 years of age, I have had, bought, sold, and fired several Ross rifles, including M-10 Sporters in .280 Ross, M-10 Military Ross rifles, 1905 Ross rifles, and .22 Ross rifles. While you never stop learning, I have NOW learned that I should have specified Ross M-10 MILITARY converted sporter in my post, to avoid the nit-pickers!
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Information

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[Rossguy]

I'd be very surprised indeed to find a fine sporting Ross .280 M-10 stamped up with any sort of stamps at all, nevermind fourteen of them! OTOH, if you could possibly be referring to a/some Military MkIII Ross rifles, that's a different story. Ross model identification is not really all that difficult, and a quick check over at RossRifle.com should clear up the confusion.
If possible, are you in a position first to really identify just which Ross we're discussing here, then supply a detailed photo of the actual "PLY" stamps? Once we're all on the same page, please tell us if some/any of these rifles show additional Brit Proofmarks on barrels and receivers.
Anxiously awaiting your response(s).....

[Cantom]

I'd be very surprised indeed to find a fine sporting Ross .280 M-10 stamped up with any sort of stamps at all, nevermind fourteen of them! OTOH, if you could possibly be referring to a/some Military MkIII Ross rifles, that's a different story. Ross model identification is not really all that difficult, and a quick check over at RossRifle.com should clear up the confusion.
If possible, are you in a position first to really identify just which Ross we're discussing here, then supply a detailed photo of the actual "PLY" stamps? Once we're all on the same page, please tell us if some/any of these rifles show additional Brit Proofmarks on barrels and receivers.
Anxiously awaiting your response(s).....

I was also wondering what the PLY was.

CanadianGunNutz.com

Pakistani Light Yeomanry...hahaha! Who knows?

[buffdog]

It would seem that Galen270 on "Canadiangunnutz.com" has come up with a very plausable piece of information on the PLY markings on the Ross M-10 .303 rifles. It was his inquiry that sparked the identification attempts two days ago.

He sent an e-mail to the Royal Marine Historian in England. The answer back was that the Royal Marines did indeed use the M-10 Ross and even Japanese Arasakas until the supply of SMLE rifles caught up.

The PLY indicates the Plymouth Division of the Royal Marine Infantry. Others are CH for Chatham and PO for Portsmouth Divisions.

This would make sense, considering that we have identified serial numbers from just over 1000 to just over 6000, at least 5000 rifles.

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[smellie]

As friend Buffdog has intimated, there seem to be a number of these around. The original inquiry on CGN began as a series of nice photos of a 'sportered' Mark III Ross which gallen270 was shooting (and having a lot of fun with) in New Brunswick, which is the best part of 3,000 miles from where I am writing this, should you care to take the drive. Friend gallen270 included a nice close-up of the front receiver ring of his rifle which showed an unusual stamp on the chamber. I posted in immediately I saw it, querying if it was indeed PLY which I was seeing (due to curvature of the receiver, the P was not readily visible).

Gallen270 posted back that his rifle indeed was stamped PLY, so I went down to the lockup and brought PLY 3692 upstairs on my return. Since then, we all have been having a world of fun, trying to run these critters down. Friend cosmic posted in that he had PLY 4191, so that added fuel to the fire, so to speak.

Gallen270, being a smart fellow, got off an e-mail to the Royal Marine regiment Museum, following upon a clue from another chap who directed us toward the Naval List of Markings on a British website. Buffdog stayed up all night and ran down 14 MORE PLY rifles referred to on the Internet. It all was rather exciting; I don't think anyone got much sleep. My telephone rang at the oddest hours, but it was worth the loss of sleep.

From what we have discovered, the rifles seem to have been issued in Plymouth to various bodies of the Royal Marines for shipboard use. The Royal Navy during the Great War, according to one little book I have, ran to 30 PAGES of Destroyers alone, simply listed by name and type. Certainly, there would have been room for 5,000 or 6,000 rifles. All PLY rifles so far were stamped with the SAME letter-punches, using individual punches and not always tremendously neatly. NUMBERS, though, were punched by at least TWO sets of stamps, a set the same size (and likely from the same box) as the PLY stamps, and a set of smaller numbers in a different, slightly more elaborate font. Rifle 6009, for example, has the large numbers, 3692 the smaller ones.

Rifles appear to have been sportered in England, as all which we have examined are stamped NOT ENGLISH MAKE and .303 NITRO PROVED. As the rifles ALSO bear the Canadian Proof mark (DCP, crossed flags and Crown) which was to the same standard as the original British proofs on British military rifles, we can only assume that they were RE-PROOFED after being cut-down into their current configurations. Rifles examined so far all have sported well-crowned barrels of 24.5" length, so this is definitely factory work and not done in some rumrunner's garage. PLY 3692 has evident London proofs.

So that's the tale to date.

Are there any more PLY Rosses out there for us to study?

Can anyone ADD to what we have to date?

[Rossguy]

By still referring to your rifle as an M-10, can I assume that you did check RossRifle.com regarding variations, and are now confirming that you do in fact have a Ross M-10 .280 Sporting rifle with peculiar markings? I've only collected and studied Ross Rifles for over fifty years now, and can report that I've never seen or heard of a Commercial M-10 chambered in .303. Yours would be a first.

[smellie]

These are MILITARY Mark III Ross Rifles we are talking about, ones which have seen Service overseas, been surplussed following the Great War or later, made into sporters and sold, likely at discount prices. So you are right, of course.

But to be just a little bit fair to friend Buffdog, it must be pointed out that they all are marked on the Receivers "M-10 PATENTED", so he is right, also.

PLY 3692 and myself both hope that this clears up any questions regarding her ancestry.

Kindly check Post 5 (above) in this thread; I think that tells the tale as we have it, so far at least.

What we are attempting to run to ground appears to be a significantly-large grouping of historic pieces which are traceable to the organisation using them. That all specimens encountered so far have been made into minimal sporters does not detract from their interest. It would be REALLY nice to encounter a PLY rifle in original condition. Are you aware of such?

Any more PLY rifles out there?

[buffdog]

By still referring to your rifle as an M-10, can I assume that you did check RossRifle.com regarding variations, and are now confirming that you do in fact have a Ross M-10 .280 Sporting rifle with peculiar markings? I've only collected and studied Ross Rifles for over fifty years now, and can report that I've never seen or heard of a Commercial M-10 chambered in .303. Yours would be a first.

You can assume anything you want, but, for the record, no, I did not bother myself with checking YOUR website at RossRifle.com. I am not interested in nit picking, and your "over and out" on GunNutz would have been enough, except you are now starting a peeing contest again. As I stated, I am not really that interested in the Ross rifles, as my tastes turn to other things.

These rifles are stamped " M-10 Patented" on the receiver ring. If Winchester stamps "Model 70, and the Patent number" on their rifles, it is a Model 70. The same with almost all firearms carrying a model number. Perhaps you have an interesting idea as to why these rifles all carry the M-10 designation, and were stamped so.

Anyways, whatever errors you believed I made came to bear fruit, and the object of the post was to find out information on the PLY marked rifles. I believe we now have a plausable answer to why over at least 5000 Ross rifles were marked this way. I can not agree with your supposition that a lot of more than 5000 rifles all marked with the same identification letters and serialized numbers is "not historically significant." Until something to the contrary comes along, we now have a possible link to the fate and disposition of more than 5000 Ross rifles that had been issued to the Royal Marines in England.

What I am also interested in, is getting true and proper information out to people who might request it, without arrogance, demeaning manor, or condescending attitudes. A good straight answer to someone's question, to help that person know or understand something about his firearms.

As far as "I've never seen or heard.....", I guess my comment to that is just because you, personally, have not observed such an event or occurance, hardly precludes the possibility of it's existance.
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[buffdog]

Somehow, we got a duplicate post to the one above, so I deleted it.

Buffdog
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[gallen270]

Hi all, I sent a second email to the curator of the RMR museum, but havent heard back as of this week. im hoping I can dig a bit further into this, and maybe a few more rifles will crawl out of the woodwork in the meantime.