French Lebel Rifles

[Aragorn243]

I couldn't find a category for these but would like to learn a little about them.

I passed on one at our local gun auction yesterday. It was the only interesting piece (to me) that they had. Final price was around $350 which with my limited research seemed a bit high for one with a mis-matched bolt. It was the 1916 5 shot version, stock was a bit rough but all there. Bolt still has cosmoline on it, worked real smooth. The finish was not bad. Butt plate was all rusted badly, only poor mark for the rifle. I was sorely tempted to up the bid just a bit more but sadly it was out of my budget for the day.

This is the first early French rifle that has shown up in the past six months of my attending the sale so they must not be that common in my region.

How are they to shoot? I read that they don't have safeties which would rule them out for anything but range shooting for me. I'm very curious why the French didn't put safeties on their rifles.

Any help would be appreciated as my interest has been raised enough to watch for them again.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Badger]

Here are some threads posted by member 188lebel, about French milsurps and accessories...

* Berthier Carbine and Rifle Information *

* Common questions regarding Modèle 1936's ? *

Tromblon Vivien-Bessières

* Berthier Chargeurs *

Regards,
Badger

[smellie]

As to reasoning as to why the French did not put a safety onto the Berthier rifle, the only thing I can think of is that it was allowed initially as a low-cost Colonial rifle. Mother Countries NEVER want the mere Colonies armed with equipment as good as what the Mother Country has on tap. It can be really hard to put down rebellions, independence movements and such if the colonies are as well-armed as the governing state.

This was one of the really big issues behind the Ross Rifle controversy between Canada and Great Britain. Canada wanted the BEST and MOST modern equipment which could be purchased and this meant the new Short rifle, with which Britain itself was only beginning to equip. Britain was entirely willing to let Canada have all the Snider-Enfields, Sniders, Martini-Henrys, Martini-Metfords, Martini-Enfields, Lee-Metfords they wanted and even was willing to part with some fairly-new long Lee-Enfield rifles..... but NOT with the new Short rifle. Canada responded by adopting the Ross Rifle, albeit in .303 caliber so as to maintain Imperial commonalty of ammunition supply.

It was the EXISTENCE of the Ross Rifle as proof of the determination of a 'colony' which induced Britain to help with the proposed factory at Lithgow when the Australians decided that they wanted to build their own rifles. If Canada and the Ross had not been in existence, it is highly likely that the Aussies would have been given the same treatment as Canada had been given.

Once the Great War got going, it became all the more imperative to reaffirm that "Daddy Knows Best", so every effort was made to get the Ross out of front-line service altogether rather than give the rifle the very small mods which would have made it the Great rifle of the War. The Aussies were in another class by this time, making their own SMLEs and so, of course, the DESIGN could not be faulted, but the remarks were never-ending about the inferior fit and poor finish of this mere colonial product.... even though they certainly SHOT well enough to do the job.

And so the Berthier was in somewhat of the same class: an obviously-inferior design destined for the mere colonies while the forces of Metropolitan France carried the 8-round Lebel, expensive and cumbersome as it was. As to actual SAFETY, there was no real problem: you just didn't load the critter until you had something to shoot at, then 3 rounds could be inserted very rapidly. And then you walked calmly into the machine-gun fire in your red trousers and blue jackets until the Maxims were overheated and boiling and there were none of you or your buddies left alive.

As to the rifles themselves, there really was nothing WRONG with them. They were well-made of good materials, the fit and finish were just fine. Recoil, with that flat butt-plate and the big cartridge, was more than a bit stout, although likely you would notice this much more on the range than you would while being shot at.

All of this said, the Berthier was the rifle that saved France in the Great War simply BECAUSE it could be made quickly and cheaply. The 1916 was simply a mod of the basic '07/'15 to 5 rounds... and the '07/'15 was a slight mod of the 1907 'fusil dit coloniel' which itself was a lengthened 1890 carbine.

They are very much a neglected corner of firearms collecting. I have a pair of 1907/'15s and a Turkish 'Forestry Carbine' and, at last, we have a source in Canada for that wonderful Partizan brass. LEE Precision makes dies, bullets are standard .323" and there's gotta be SOME kind of powder around here that a Berthier will like, so mine will be getting their first workouts in close to 50 years, later this Summer.

But the next time you get a chance at one, grab it. When you get it home, you might wonder whatever became of your sanity, but you will warm to the old girl.... and she might just show you that she still has a dance or two left. Just feed her right and she'll love you for it.

[Cosine26]

The French military of WWI did not put much faith in aimed rifle fire. To them the rifle was primarily a "bayonet handle". The French military believed that bayonet equipped infantry and "ELAN" would always carry the day. As late as 1917 the French cavaly launched a horse-mounted saber-waving cavalry charge against German MG's - Guess who won. Much faith was put into massed bayonet equipped infantry troops and the frontal charge. This was one of the primary causes of the 1917 French infantry "mutiny" at Verdun.

[bearhunter]

I have three French rifles. I shoot all of them. They can be difficult to find in decent condition. The French, use their equipment, until it is just completely obsolete or unserviceable, from wear. Then, they store it for 60-70 years, before putting it on the surplus market. Even so, it's never cheap. Their rifles, may seem ungainly to North American eyes but they sure do work well. Their semi auto answer to the Garand, is easier to handle and has about the same power. The bolt actions seem ungainly but are quite handy and very well made. They are also very accurate, as long as the bores are in decent shape but that can be said about any nations rifles.
I like French firearms. The ammunition is very hard to impossible to come by and is usually always a handloading propsition.