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Thread: I need help identifying these Bren parts please. Round firing pin?

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  1. #1
    Legacy Member c310pilot's Avatar
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    I need help identifying these Bren parts please. Round firing pin?

    Third breech block from the left has a round firing pin?

    The three lowers - Mk# and maker please.

    Thanks!
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    Peter Laidler's Avatar
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    If the trigger part of the butt slides corresponds with the front mounting pictures, then it looks to me like
    Bottom: early/original Mk1 style. Note contour of machining around sear axis pin
    Middle,: Mk2. Simplified and about an inch shorter at the front
    Top: Later, simpliified Mk1
    Breech blocks: All look like well ringed .303" breech blocks but the 3rd from left is an early type to allow gas escaping from a ruptured caps to escape. Same block..... never seen or even heard of a round firing pin. There was a special reason for the oval punch type Bren firing pin. But the firing pin hole looks as though it's been bushed to me! Could it be something salved from a countersunk/welded DP gun is my only thought or alternatively, a Chinese 7.62 x54 effort........?

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    Legacy Member c310pilot's Avatar
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    I have 8 breech blocks and this is the only one that has the holes for the gas and the round firing pin. The breech block has not been bushed. Does a manufacturers mark HK inside a circle mean anything to you? Also, the serial number is electrol penciled 11481 not stamped like most.
    Last edited by c310pilot; 07-28-2010 at 12:19 PM.

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    Legacy Member Kev G's Avatar
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    HK inside a circle indicates Czechicon manufacture , looks to be from a Czech export Bren model......not sure about the round firing pin though.
    ATB Kevin

  7. Thank You to Kev G For This Useful Post:


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    Legacy Member c310pilot's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Interesting as it came in a a Ingles parts kit. The breech block numbers match the carriers numbers.

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    The oblong firing pin was a feature of the .303" Brens because as the spent case hit the ejector and commenced to rotate downwards, the inertia (Newtons law and all that stuff you learned at school don't forget.......) remaining in the percussion cap caused thousands of them to pop out, remain in the gun and jam the guns. CZ designed and patented the ejector that staked the cap in place but those wise engineers at Hythe and Enfield came up with the oblong firing pin that soundly staked and enlarged the cap that ensured that every cap remained firmly in place during the ejection sequence. This feature was carried over to the BESA too as we know, because the BESA and BREN firing pins were so similar that they were marked to identify them to unwitting Armourers. That's the history lesson over.

    So if the round firing pin breech block is indeed a .303" ZB block, then it'll have been made with an oblong firing pin and hole. But C-130's example certainly LOOKS bushed to me. If not, I wonder why they'd sell .303" guns that would/might/probably use Britishicon made .303" ammo that was the cause of the 'caps-out' problem, with round firing pins. They'd already bought the Enfield patented oval plan firing pin for the BESA - or am I being a bit blinkered or lead in the wrong direction here..............?

    Ideas KG and Brit Plumb..........!

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    Legacy Member peregrinvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    Middle,: Mk2. Simplified and about an inch shorter at the front
    I believe it is a Britishicon Monotype MkII butt-slide rather than a Canadianicon Inglis MkII as it has the earlier MkI style machining. For some reason Monotype kept this style on their MkII's whereas Inglis changed over to the simplified style machining.

    I can confirm that the 1943 Daimler / Monotype MkII I bought at Beltring last week has a matching butt-slide with that style of machining.

    Mark
    Nature and nature's laws lay hid in night;
    God said "Let Newton be!" and all was light.

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    Legacy Member c310pilot's Avatar
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    It would be really nice to have a line up of all the diffrent lowers lined up and identified as well as receivers. Over the years these things in the US got so mixed and matched its hard to get or put together a correct version.

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    Unless they are marked, by manufacturer Peregrine and C-130, then it's going to be difficult to actuially tie them down because butt slides were a readily replaceable item at unit Armourer level (I seem to remember but other Armourers will soon correct me ....). The main reason for changing was that the axis pin holes would elongate and fail the 'no-go' gauge limit. Another was worn detent holes in the change lever so that you couldn't feel the change lever actually click firmly in place. So, we'd just use the next butt slide that was available off the shelf or came in from Ordnance. It'd be numbered to the gun and thereafter, who would know if it wasn't the original.

    Later, because someone decided correctly that butt slides were all interchangeable anyway, it was deemed that once an old number was removed from the butt slide, then due to their full interchangeability, there was no reason to re-number that butt slide to the gun. FTR'd guns that had rebuilt/rebushed axis pin holes and had the number machined off the back of the butt socket area had the 'new' gun number engraved on the rear left hand side of the butt slide.

    Anyway, mix and matching isn't just a US trait C-130. When we still had hundreds of Cadet Force .303" guns of all marks still in use, we had instructions to upgrade, where possible, to Mk3 spec. I've mentioned this before and this might appear sacrilege to the purists, you could have a line of apparently Mk3 Brens only to look carefully to see Mk1 and 2 bodied guns made up to almost Mk3 spec. There seemed to be so many Mk3 barrels in the system, it wasn't even worth matching worn Mk1 and 2 barrels...............

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    Legacy Member Kev G's Avatar
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    Breech block is the same pattern as the Czechicon ZB vz39 which the HK mark helps ID it.Round profile firing pin and insert also as ZB vz39 for 8 x 56R .
    If the piston extension/carrier is also marked 11481 this is also probably vz39 ,Inglis serial number would have had a 'T' in a 5 digit serial number - 1T1481 or 11T481.
    ATB Kevin

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