german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[Alan de Enfield]

FTR rifles leave the factory like NEW and although I'm not as familiar with the Lithgow FTR system as I am with our own (but even then, was VERY familiar with it in the 60's.......) the notion that this one didn't have the woodwork linished clean is simply beyond comprehension. Is there a bit of confusion creeping in on the forum as elsewhere it's been refered to as a P14 or a 17? I have to say that I NEVER saw a P14 or 17 in a school cadet corps in Australia although I have to also admit that I never saw many Cadet rifles either

I think it is a 1917 dated SMLE and not a P14 / P17 (The pics certainly show a SMLE) so there should be no confusion.

[breakeyp]

Ok, I have to ask ...

Bear with me as I'm not an Enfield collector, but if there are people who claim it's a fake, why would anyone in their right mind go to all that trouble to fake German markings on what is essentially a cheap old SMLE?

It can't be for profit as it just isn't worth that much and you'd think that anyone with the stamps to do it, would certainly realize it would be a tough sell to an Enfield collector crowd.

.

It's one of the best novelty and most unique pieces I've seen on here, well, of course next to John Sukey's Collection of Oddities and Unusual Pieces (click here).

Regards,
Badger

Twenty years ago, a local wit stamped a 7mm (not 8mm French) Remington rolling block with fake German Waffenampts and drove the local Nazi experts carzy. I am sure it has changed hands so many times it is now legit due to the preponderance of former owners who don't want to be exposed as having been suckered. Remember the fake Nazi markings on the Straight pull Mannlichers about 8 years ago? I think people do this because they can and some how feel superior to the suckers they take advantage

[enfield303t]

Saw the show bearhunter refers to and saw the No 1's and am thinking along the lines of Badger, why would you waste the time to fake one as it would not make a huge difference in the price. Thinking logically with the tens of thousands of weapons captured in France why wouldn't you use them especially for non front line troops? It looks very good and personally I would have bought it in a heartbeat and know it has a "great home" now.

[jonnyc]

The thread on the other forum is very convincing. There are hundreds or even thousands ($$$) of reasons to create such a rifle, and there are two very good reasons why someone might post about and defend it:
1. They paid big money for a story and they want to feel good about their purchase.
2. They created this fantasy piece and want to build up a buzz about this rare and controversial item prior to sale.

[bearhunter]

johnnyc, that's like saying the CMP is the only credible source of information on US milsurps. For some reason, the US seems to be full of fakes. Such an off the cuff assumption isn't logical.

I don't really believe that by the way. Milsurp rifles were captured, stamped and used by opposing nations. There are literally thousands of Mosins and other soviet weapons that bear Nazi stamps. The same goes for Portuguese, Belgian, Lithuanian, Norwegian, Danish and French weapons to name a few. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to say there is good probability that US equipment may have also been stamped in such a manner. Especially lend lease stuff or Latvian stuff.

I had a Canadian, Inglis Hi Power, which I purchased in 1970 that had both Canadian and Nazi Marks. The fellow I bought the pistol from had recaptured it from a German artillery sergeant in Normandy. Now how in blue hades did a German sergeant manage to come across a Canadian built and issued Hi Power, that early in the war? I have absolutely no idea how those stamps got on that pistol but a very intrepid collector, paid a handsome premium for it. It certainly couldn't have been captured at Dieppe or Dunkirk, the pistols hadn't even been manufactured yet, unless it was a "trials" version.

In this case, I suspect the pistol was stamped, with proper equipment, by an unscrupulous REME, looking to sell souvenirs. The stamps were in proper locations, on the slide and in front of the trigger guard, so whomever did the job knew what they were doing. Was it real or not? I certainly don't know enough about it to say unequivocally, one way or the other. The buyer, with a lot of experience in these matters, was willing to pay a handsome premium for the pistol, on top of trading me another Inglis Hi Power in excellent condition.

[RobSmith]

It be legit, but it woul;d be such an oddball that I would consider it a fake unless serious documentation was discovered to validate it.

[enfield303t]

The Germans called the captured No1 Mk111's the Gewehr 281. I still think it is probably legit as I talked to the present owner and now know the lineage of how the previous owner came to own it. This gun has been sitting in the back of a gun safe for many years and is from a era when the amount of "fakes" were far less compared to today. The price for this gun has a premium but NOTHING compared to a fake SS marked Mauser or something with a very high value. The Germans used and restamped everything they got their hands on like anyone would.
They used all the artillery pieces they captured 'til they ran out of ammunition. I would be VERY CAUTIOUS to say something NEVER HAPPENED during war. If there can be Israeli 98K's then anything is possible....it is my opinion that if the Jews can use a Nazi rifle to fight for an independent nation then ANYTHING is possible. Superbee I think you have a very interesting piece, good on you!

PS. In regard to using the word NEVER, a couple of months ago my son was reading a post on a site that said a certain item was never made and it was all BS. Well I told him that he could correct that posting if he wanted as this WWII souvenir does exist as I saw one. The item was so horrific I would not mention it on any post, I still feel ill every time I think about it.

[bearhunter]

Superbee, I would be inclined to go with my gut instincts on that rifle. Personally I feel that it's the real thing. Germans loved to stamp everything with swastikas and waffenampts from 1936 to 1945. They stamped just about everything they managed to get to a rear facility.

Go with it and give it a good home. The previous owner knows his stuff, better than just about anyone I know. He is reliable, honest and credible. Always has been, since I first met him 20+ years ago. I doubt that anything has changed. If anyone has had the opportunity to ferret out rarities, he would be the one. After all, he's had access to several thousands of them. Many of which he inspected personally. We should all be so lucky.

[RJW NZ]

If we're talking about post war and say, 20 years after that to 1965, wouldn't the popular interest in faking german stamps on an enfield have been so low as to make a fake an unreasonable thought? I can think of loads of ww2 stuff that was for the want of a better phrase, ' tainted with the bad memories of the war' that no wanted much to do with it, that is, until a generation comes along that wasn't in the war and gets a romanticized view of it all and and gets fascinated with the hardware. Or am not understanding collecting sentiments even at the time?

I vote - most likely real.

[Son]

The other board is Gunboards and I went and asked the guys from the 98k Forum over there to come to the Lee Enfield Forum and comment.
The fake Waffenamt-ish eagle, aka "Fatboy", that is marked on this rifle has been intermittently available as a set of "antiqued" stamps on e-bay for a couple of years---and has been showing up on cooked German rifles during the same period.
In fact, the whole Third Reich artifact thing is so full of fakery, the experienced collectors there are out of credulity and very, very good at spotting them.
So I got a couple of the best to come and explain things---which they did in no uncertain terms.
Strange markings stamped on SMLE (pics added))

Go and see.
-----krinko

PS. Badger, there are lots of people who will pay a premium to get a German capture marked rifle. I had a legitimate 1939 MAS 36 with the proper Waffenamt, in the proper place---bought for $80 and sold for $400.

I'd more call it gathering a lynch mob- Seeing as you are quoting the other forum, so will I... Straight from the K98 forum, "GO SEE"

Will someone please come stomp on this?


" Will someone please come stomp on this?

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...43#post1433043

1.Harbor Freight stamp slinger ruins a perfectly good rifle?

---or---

2.Retarded German marks Aussie SMLE after too much BBK?

I'm going with 1.

Hambone, where are you?
-----krinko "

And then further down...

"The guy who is presenting it is convinced it is---he bought a story, of course. There are other Enfield collectors who know nothing of German markings and can benefit from a good beat down here. I would hate to see a rash of Enfield Rifles mutilated because of general ignorance and credulity.
Thanks to all who have put the boot in so far.
-----krinko "

You didn't ask them to comment- you gathered a mob and went in with the boot!!!!!

"There are other Enfield collectors who know nothing of German markings and can benefit from a good beat down here."

"Thanks to all who have put the boot in so far."

Pretty poor form krinko. Regardless of the original posters situation, he was asking for help.
I'm disappointed by your attitude.