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Thread: What the heck is this 870 Wingmaster w/trench gun heat shield?

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  1. #1
    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    What the heck is this 870 Wingmaster w/trench gun heat shield?

    Ok, long story. Saw an ad over at AR15.com. Here is the original ad.

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=800150

    So I saw an 870 with a bunch of taticool stuff, especially the surefire forend for a decent price. I thought the heat shield was fake, and the US stampings were fake as well. But I talked the guy down to $400. I was planning on buying a surefire in the next week and they are about $225 or so. So I thought $175 more and get a shotgun with 2 barrels. No brainer. So I drove down to pick it up.

    After seeing it in person I don't think it's a bubba job. In fact I almost think it's military. The heat shield I'm sure is original USGI. It is stamped on the other side SP-30-06. It is 6 rows with 29 holes. Looking at compare to other USGI heat shields online it looks legit. I have a couple fakes, and this one is no where in comparison to them. I took it off the barrel and it was a bear to take off. It had been on there a long time. But under the barrel, the slots for the screws on the underside and the bead on the top were both removed and made and then parked over. And it's obviously a very old park job. The US is stamped on the side. I believe it's the original finish. I don't think this was ever reparked. I don't see any evidence of sandblasting.

    And after I got the shell sideholder off, it's a wingmaster serial S798647v. It's marked Cyl. on the barrel. I see a J stamp. And I see RFB or RFP, I would guess this is an inspectors mark. I got really good pics of all the the writing in the link below.

    The finish was really old and dry. I rubbed it down with a rig rag, and it really cleaned up.

    But there are a ton of pics on the link below. I pulled off all the tatical crap, and just put the barrel with the heat shield back on with the simple aftermarked stock set. He said that this was the stock set that was on it when he got it. So I know that's not original. But what do you guys think? Military or not?

    Here is a link to tons of pics.

    http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/t...%20wingmaster/
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    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    I was just reading about the Mark 1 USMC 870 that had a beefy bayonet adaptor. It said prototypes were made before the Mark 1 design was utilized. Both with heatshield and without. Is this maybe one of those prototypes I wonder? Or maybe an Armory job, or just a bubba special?

    Calling remington, they said it was made around 71-73. But that is about all the info they knew.

    I measure the barrel it's 18'' and factory. It's not cutdown. It's marked cyl as well. But there are no date codes on it I can see.

    This one has me confused.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    The examples of Rem 870 I have seen are completely different. The front has a brace for barrel and tube. They fully enclose the front. They have iron sights. The bayonet was the in service M7 not the long one. Remington built bayonet lugs but they seem to be scarce and I cant find one to save me. The wood was sanded walnut no fancies. The finish was park and the stampings look done by farmer John with about four strikes to the S. The U.S. should have the period and these don't look like arsenal font. Just the biggest ones they could find. The mix of barrels is like the rest, a mix. I don't think anyone was trying to do anything but build himself a combat gun and convince himself it was real. On the other hand, in it's second form you have a supreme shooter.
    Regards, Jim

  6. #4
    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    I know it's not a Mark 1 or even a Mark 1 test sample as I know what the remington bayonet lug looks like. What I meant about it was at that timeframe, the Marines were experimenting with making a combat shotgun for use. I wonder if this was just that. An experiment where some young armorer had an old USGI heatshield laying around and threw it on an 870 that was sitting there. I don't think I will ever know the exact details of this gun as I don't think there are many out there, and from I can tell, not many military 870's were ever were leaked into civi hands. Most are still sitting in armories and not retired yet. So that makes it really hard to figure out what it was unless I can find a USGI and he says yeah I saw those in the Armory.

    But what does everyone think of the handguards, USGI or not? Also the strange markings SP-30-06 on the handguard. Also the marking on the barrel, is that correct for a 70's gun? I think the barrel is an older cyl barrel that migrated to the gun. I don't see a barrel code date, unless it's the J on the right hand side of the barrel. Also at that time were wingmasters sold that were parked? I always thought wingmasters were blued, I've never seen a parked one. And how easy would it be for a civie to buy a 18'' cyl barrel at that time? I doubt Sears or a local hardwear store sold 18'' barrels. I don't think 18'' barrels were popular until the 90's when home defense guns became popular. But I could be wrong. I didn't start buying guns till the early 90's and I really don't remember anything but long barreled hunting shotguns.

  7. #5
    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    And to add to the mystery. I just found what looks like a civie Ithaca with the same markings on a trench gun adaptor at a rock island auction. It says it was made for US army special forces. Theirs looks like it has stampings on the stock too. But my stocks are missing so I don't know if mine had any or not. Here is a link to the auction.

    http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/50/lid/1550

  8. #6
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    The Ithacas are VERY scarce. The handguard seems to have a similar marking but check the US on all the guns. None have that poor strike. It wouldn't be allowed. At best perhaps someone added a handguard to make themselves a trench gun where there wasn't one before. It's been done!
    Regards, Jim

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    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    I don't know if you ever served in the military, but I have seen way worse marks on weapons, gear, and vehicles. I did work in a armory in the USMC in the 90's. We were just a field grade armory for our infantry unit. There were about three or four trained armorers, and then us that were assigned there to assit the armorers. Most of what I remember was the armorer's only fixed weapons that were broke, and we did all the other work they didn't want to do like cleaning, marking gear, ammo crates, sorting brass, that kind of stuff.

    I remember some of the stuff we did there was about the same quality as that strike. In fact, we used spray paint and stencils more than about anything else. And we had a ton of different sized letters and numbers that we would use to mark stuff,like boxes, gear, and weapons. We used to strike rack numbers in weapons with them and we did a lot of stampings on the machine guns to keep the barrels with the correct gun after the amorer set headspace on the weapon.

    In fact, my 249 SAW at the time, had USMC stamped by hand on the side of it. And it looked just like the stamping on that 870. You know how I know, I stamped it in there myself while I was in. Why? Because I was 19, and I thought it looked really cool on there. And I was really bored one day and I had the hand stamps sitting there.

    I just think to say just because of the stamp it's not real. If there were more issues with the shotgun I would agree. But being parked, having a correct CYL marked barrel. The age is correct to Vietnam, and the original USGI heatshield which looks expertly mounted on the barrel, not bubba'd as most shotguns I see makes me at least believe it might be real.

    I have had fake trench guns before and the heat shields are put on crooked, or they chew up the barrel putting it on. And the bead sight is always just ground off. And the threads on the bottom of the barrel for the mounting screws are all chewed up and not uniform. This one is almost perfect on the way they installed it. Whoever did it, was really good. And with all that being done and then parked over it, and you can tell the park is really old. Well that makes it really seem original. As old as the park is, it wouldn't have been beneficial to fake a trench shotgun as you could buy one cheaper than an 870 at the time through the old DCM. If nothing else, that barrel had a trench gun heat shield installed a long time ago by a professional. I'm sure of that.

    I just don't think I would rule it out from being real, just because of the US stamp. Heck some young GI might have stamped it in there just to look cool, just like I stamped USMC on my 249 SAW. Maybe he saw the US stamp on a model 12 or 97 and tried to copy it. It's just hard telling.

    From what I've read most the last couple days, most shotguns in vietnam were just commercial guns with most of them having no military markings whatsoever. I was just hoping maybe someone on this board had seen a 870 setup like this before, maybe in South-East Asia. I know I will never be able to prove this is military, but in the beginning I was more leaning towards trying to disprove it. But the more I research vietnam shotguns and all the inconsistancies of them, it makes me almost believe it is more possible.
    Last edited by cplstevennorton; 09-15-2010 at 11:48 PM.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    OK Steve, what ever you say. And yes, I did 35 years in the infantry.
    Regards, Jim

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    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    Browning, I'm not tyring to be disrespectful. All I'm saying is I wouldn't rule it out just because of that stamping. If 40 years from now the machine gun ban is lifted and my 249 SAW hits the open market, everyone would say the USMC stamp is fake. But in reality it's real. It was done in the Marines by a Marine in the armory. That's all I'm saying. I would'nt rule it out for just the stamp.

    Now if anyone sees something else that is incorrect, let me know. Then that will sway me the other way. But other than the stamp it almost looks legit.

    It's really no biggie to me as it wouldn't be worth anymore than the sum of the parts anyways, as it's one you can't prove. And I have a WWI 1897 and a WWII model 12 sitting in the safe already. So I'm not trying to over-read into something trying to fill a hole in my collection.

    I'm just trying to figure this one out as this one is very interesting to me. This one isn't cut and dry like factory made trench guns. From what I can tell anything went during the years of vietnam with shotguns. If anyone else has anything please chime in.

  12. #10
    Legacy Member cplstevennorton's Avatar
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    I just called remington again today trying to find anymore info on it. The shotgun dates to the early 70's. And I found it was blued when it was sold new. So it has been refinished. I hadn't thought it was, but it sure has been. After thinking about it, I got a magnifying glass out and examined the US stamp. It was stamped and then sandblasted and then parked over. It was struck before refinishing. I also pulled the heat guard off again examined where the bead sight was, and the slots cut under the barrel for the shroud to fit with the magnifying glass. They too were done before it was refinished. As you can see evidence of sandblasting on both over the threads and where the bead was.

    Now looking at the finish, it can't be anything recent. I just don't think Bubba would have taken the time to make this. And back then if Bubba wanted a trench gun, he could have probably bought one cheaper through the old DCM or gunshows then he could of got a new Wingmaster, heat shield, and then faked the stamps, and reparked it. It just wouldn't have made sense back then to make one like this. At least to me it doesn't. Back then trench guns weren't valuable as they are now.

    I took a bunch more pics outside in the sun. It's an overcast day, but at least you can see it a little better. Any comments on this are greatly appreciated as this one is very interesting to me. I just don't think this one is cut and dry one way or another.

    http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/t...%20wingmaster/

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