Early use of No5 Mk1 Rifle

[P-07ShortLee]

Having examined a No5 Mk1 (late 1944) that was FTR'd in 1945, I have to ask, just where could a No5 have seen use in that short of time?

Not to mention needing a rebuild? Didn't think they saw that much use in WW2.

Information

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[Thunderbox]

No5s were evidently issued to 1st and 6th Airborne Division in March or April 1945. Units of these divisions were used to occupy Hamburg & Denmark in the period 27 April to 7 May (when Germany surrendered), and then Norway from 8 May onwards. Photos exist of these units carrying No5s during these operations.

I've seen several rifles that were FTR'd within a year of manufacture - one No4 was FTR'd within 3 months of its build date! There are probably all sorts of reasons why such rifles had to be fixed: could be damage or wear during intense training use, particularly if the rifle was a "pool" weapon in constant use in a training depot, or perhaps the discovery of a manufacturing defect of some kind for which there were no spares yet in the system.

[villiers]

Apparently they got as far as Peenemünde where they confronted the advancing Russians in their attempt to occupy the rocket research facilities first. Some even say that advance Para units got as far as Wolgast (to the east of Peenemünde) and that there was a limited exchange of fire with the Russians. So the No. 5 could well have been the first firearm to have been used in battle in the Cold War.

[P-07ShortLee]

Both: Very interesting.

If anything can be said of the No5 Mk1 Rifle it certainly saw some historic use!

[Jc5]

Did any No.5 rifles reach the Pacific Theater before WWII ended? It would be ironic if the only WWII use that the so-called "jungle carbine" saw was in Europe. (I know they were used in tropical environments afterwards).


Overheard a gun shop guru telling a customer all sorts of silly things about a No.5 that the customer was oogling, such as "These originally had a simple L-sight. The Brits only designed it to be aimed out to 50 yards...they tested them to hit 3-inch groups at 50 yds. That's it. You can't see more than 30 yards in a jungle anyway, because of all the trees." And so on... Customer had done some reading, because he asked about the wandering zero. Guru brushed that off, saying again that they were only designed to hit 3-inch groups at 50 yards... I wandered off to another part of the shop.

[Thunderbox]

Following VE day, units of both 1st and 6th Airborne Divisions did indeed get sent to the Far East before VJ day. I'm not sure if they were involved in any full-on combat because, in the British Theatre, 14th Army had fully reconquered Burma and were in an operational pause pending a seaborne assault on Malaya & Singapore (chronic shortages of landing craft, as in all theatres less the Pacific....). Hiroshima, Nagasaki & VJ occurred before the next phase of operations could begin, so the No5-equipped Airborne units were used in a similar role to that in Europe - rapidly entering territory still occupied by the Japanese in order to accept their surrender and administer the territories until legal government was restored.

The British had to use the fully-armed Japanese army as police in order to deal with an explosion of uprisings and civil wars as factions fought for political control. In Indonesia, British and Japanese fought together against Indonesian communists and nationalist who were fighting the returning Dutch, the Japanese, the British, each other - and any section of the population that didn't co-operate. Much the same happened in the French colonies in Indo-China, where the British were initially the provisional government because of hostility to the French. Thus, ironically, the No5 in Far East service may have been used alongside the Japanese army/Police instead of against them....

[Bruce_in_Oz]

And then there's the No1. Mk5s that were "mislaid" by the Indian component of the Brit forces in post WW2 Vietnam.

I have seen several photos (probably the usual posed propaganda shots) in various Vietnamese museums, of Mk.5's in use by the Viet Minh/ Viet Cong.

I'll see if I can find some photos of the photos.

[villiers]

... and then there´s the post-war British Mandate in Palastine where the same Paras (armed with No 5s) fought both the Arabs AND Jewish terrorists. So the No. 5 could be said to be the first weapon used in anger in the next world conflict.