Enfield Made MkII’s?

[peregrinvs]

IIRC, the ‘Bren Gun Saga’ book states that the first MkII’s were made at Enfield prior to full production by the Monotype Scheme. However, the Bren illustrated appears to be a plain vanilla ‘D’ for Daimler marked gun and I don’t recall ever seeing or hearing of an Enfield marked MkII Bren.

So is the BGS correct and do any Enfield MkII’s still exist?

Thanks,
Mark

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[Peter Laidler]

Another fallible author there Peregrine. Enfield didn't make Mk2 Brens

[Brit plumber]

I've no doubt that Enfield made some sort of Mk2 trial body or mockup just to see if it would be suitable, it would be a giant leap of faith to put the monotype group straight into mass production. I'm also sure they never even produced a complete gun, a toolroom mock up would be enough under the circumstances, after all, the mechanics remained the same.

As for the Enfield Mk2 production myth, its easy to see how the ED Enfield logo has been confused with the D daimler logo found on approx 25 to 30,000 early Daimler marked monotype guns.

[Peter Laidler]

There is no mention of manufacture from new but they DID use existing bodies to formulate the simplified ideas put forward by the Pilkington committee, including, initially a screw/bolt-on front dovetail bracket that vibrated loose. This is all detailed in the forthcoming book

[peregrinvs]

As for the Enfield Mk2 production myth, its easy to see how the ED Enfield logo has been confused with the D daimler logo found on approx 25 to 30,000 early Daimler marked monotype guns.

One of which is the gun I got at Beltring. Apologies for continually going on about it, but I'm REALLY pleased with it. Other than a non-matching barrel and forced-matched locking nut, it's almost completely factory spec - when I stripped it down the only non-British parts I found were an Inglis bolt body and firing pin.

I get the impression from keeping an eye on what turns up for sale on the UK deact market that British MkII's are rarer than double-dovetail MkI's. Is this my imagination?

But enough bragging. Many thanks for confirming my suspicions about 'Enfield MkIIs'.

Cheers,
Mark

[Peter Laidler]

I don't know about being rare but of the many hundred UK MoD Brens that I had a chance to see before they were destroyed, I did notice that the machining quality of some Daimler Brens went from the pretty good to the absolutely dire! The BIG difference was the main bodyside machining, between up-cut milling and down-cut milling. But it wasn't the outside that was critical of course.........

[Kev G]

From the Monotype Corporations wartime effort booklet 'Instruments of War and Peace'



ATB Kevin

[Brit plumber]

From the database I've counted 136 Monotype Mk2s and 160 Enfield DDs, obviously there will be many moe out there but on average it appears there are more DD guns left in existence.

Unfortunatly the figure of '26,000 guns of 30,000 left behind at Dunkirque' is used out of context alot. There were 26,000 odd Brens left behind, by the time of the evacuation, but Enfield produced a further 4,500 true Mk1s with the crown, a further 7,000 true Mk1s with the ED logo and then another 8,200 simplified bodies which retained the second dovetail. In total approx 50,000 DD Enfield Brens were produced, 26,000 were lost leaving 24,000 still in service by the end of 1940.

Obviously that means that Monotype produced 23,000 more Mk2s than Enfield produced of the Mk1 DD, and with 26,000 Mk1 DDs lost, and no other major British losses after this, the Enfield DD statistically should be the rarer gun.

So where are they all?

Converted to L4A3, South African 7.62mm or in use in some 3rd world country?

[Peter Laidler]

The figures of lost Bren guns after the fall of France, taken from the War Office returns for the defence of the UK in August 1940 were that there were only 2,300 available to the Army. The 30,000 figure of totals manufactured were the figure given to the Board as manufactured up to June 1940. These figures are correct BP! Folllowing that, even those Brens available to the Small Arms Schol at Hythe, used to instruct the instructors were withdrawn immediately and trials ZB guns were used in their place. We still have some that were downgraded to DP for this purpose ............ and the records!

I think, and it's only my opinion, that the the 'lack' of UK Daimler Mk2's is due to the fact that these remained in UK service until into the 60's with the Mk3's. We simply sold off the remaining obsolescent Mk1's, kept the Mk2's and as they became worn out, scrapped them.

Another fallible author point is that Lithgow didn't make Mk2's either. The simplified parts, yes but guns, no!

[Brit plumber]

[QUOTE=Peter Laidler;142750]The figures of lost Bren guns after the fall of France, taken from the War Office returns for the defence of the UK in August 1940 were that there were only 2,300 available to the Army. The 30,000 figure of totals manufactured were the figure given to the Board as manufactured up to June 1940. These figures are correct BP! QUOTE]

Not disputing the figures Peter, I think its the way the figures are used to describe how many DD guns are in existence. Many of the dealers sell late 1940 intermediate guns as one of the 30,000 guns that survived when in fact there were 50,000 DDs made, and unless the serial is pre C9999 then it isnt one of those.

I actually have 93 serials from A1 to C9999, I reckon thats pretty good going.