?Lebel? Single-shot Trainer

[alamo308]

This is a sweet little gun, with a very nice two-stage trigger release (practicing with snap caps), and I'm anxious to get it to the range for a workout at 100 yards, but it definitely has some quirks (typical French?)! For example: NO loading ramp, NO EXTRACTOR, and NO ejector. Fortunately, the receiver chamber access area is shallow enough that manual insertion and extraction (fingernail?) should be no problem. Also, it lacks a bolt withdrawal catch (not lost or missing; just appears there was no provision for it), so when pulling back on the bolt to load or post-firing, you must be careful not to pull the whole bolt assembly back out of the receiver.
I could not find any indication of the manufacturer or year of manufacture.
Interestingly, it is ALL matching serial numbers (73XX), the most I have EVER seen on a training rifle:
1. forestock (penciled in barrel channel)
2. buttstock (penciled under buttplate)
3. buttstock (stamped on right side)
4. buttplate (stamped on underside)
5. front barrel band (stamped - last three digits)
6. middle barrel band (stamped - last three digits)
7. buttstock/receiver mounting bolt (stamped - four digits); this is a long bolt attaching through the rear of the buttstock (access hole under the buttplate), anchoring the wood to the receiver
8. barrel (stamped); also block capital letters stamped "LLH"
9. receiver (stamped)
10. action/cocking bolt(stamped)
11. action/cocking bolt body (stamped)
12. trigger (stamped)
13. trigger guard (stamped - last three digits)
14. trigger guard base plate (stamped)

A little research revealed that the 'LLH' stamped on the barrel is the mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran, a Belgian supplier of firearm-grade steel billets or even finished barrels to various French and Belgian gun makers from around 1900 up through c. WWI-ish. Still doesn't help ID the maker, but at least adds a bit of background to this example.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Alamo308, what you have is the successor model to the following, the pictures reveal the family resemblance:

The world's first purpose-designed small-bore trainer type
Well that's a sweeping claim! How do I justify it?

Attachment 16957

A little historical background is required.
The dealer had described this as an unknown rifle marked Nationale Rifle, and thought it was an English trainer.

Attachment 16958

The curious spelling suggested otherwise. It is a French trainer – in fact, one of the first-ever training rifles. It is in caliber .22 short, and is so light (2.4 kg), that a reasonably fit pistol shooter could fire it using just one hand. If ever a rifle could be described as cute, this is it.

It has a windage-adjustable backsight that is calibrated to 200 meters. When I took it to the club to try it out, the general opinion was that 100 meters would be tough, and 200 meters was a joke. Despite the doubters, this tiny rifle performed well at 100 meters.

Thus encouraged, I took it to an international friendship match at Pforzheim and showed it to members of the French team. They identified it as a French military trainer of roughly 1880-1890. Since then I have shot it at 200 meters, in France. The shots hit the target, and were even in the black, although the result could hardly be called a group. As far as I can ascertain, this was the word’s first ever purpose-designed small-bore trainer type, as opposed to full-bore rifles cut down and fitted with a small-bore sleeve in the barrel.

It was, in fact, designed before our familiar “.22 long rifle” cartridge had been conceived and become the standard small-bore rifle cartridge. The styling is reminiscent of the Gras single-shot BPCR that was the standard French rifle before the introduction of the 1886 Lebel with its revolutionary smokeless powder.

It was made in St. Etienne, the old “Manufacture Nationale d’Armes de St. Etienne”; more familiar to most shooters in the abbreviated form MAS. Although St Etienne is not marked on the rifle, the whole design is clearly a military one, the individual parts being numbered as for a service rifle, something that is certainly not usual for civilian rifles. At the end of the 19th century, St. Etienne was full of gunsmiths and small manufacturers, in addition to the state arsenal, and the arsenal is known to have farmed out work to private contractors, as was probably the case for this, the world’s first real small-bore training rifle.

The Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71 had ended disastrously for France. One result was a nationalist upsurge of demand for better shooting skills, to be learnt as early as possible. Shooting should be taught not only in the military academies, but in schools as well. So the French national shooting organization (their NRA equivalent) sponsored a standard cadet rifle, hence the inscription “Nationale Rifle”. One wonders why it was not called “Fusil National”, as Fusil is the French word for rifle. A masculine word, by the way, hence no "e" at the end of National in this case.

I put this question to the French shooters, and the explanation was: the rifle was the model approved by the Société Nationale de Tir (national shooting society) and, Société being a feminine word, the Nationale has an e at the end. So the name does not mean a national rifle, but the training rifle approved by the national society.

There remains the question of why the word rifle was used. Here the general hypothesis of my French friends was that as all things German were extremely “out” at that time, and France was starting on a pro-British phase that led to the “entente Cordiale”, the use of the word “Rifle” was what we would now call trendy. An early example of the modish “Franglais” that has annoyed the Académie Française ever since.

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Alamo308's trainer
Alamo308, what you have is an example of the model that succeeded mine. It is basically the same, but with the metal box added to give it a Lebel-look.

It should have an extractor fork which pulls out the empty case, but no ejector. No bolt catch, as the bolt is simply released by depressing the trigger very firmly and pulling the bolt back. The bolt should NOT come out WITHOUT the trigger being depressed.

If you post a photo of the open action, showing the loading tray and breech, I may be able to advise you further. Photos of any markings on the action body would be informative.

You may well find other marks from subcontractors on various components, but probably no manufacturer's mark on the action body, as the final rifle was a military trainer, not a commercial rifle. Very similar rifles were offered on the open market ,under the fanciful name of "Buffalo Carbine" etc, but those have a different bolt action.

These trainers were used by the French military and made available to schools and cadet forces in the drive to improve shooting skills at an early age. As far as I am aware, there was no further trainer type introduced until the MAS22.

Shooting: your rifle (assuming it is a 22lr) should group as well as most milsurps up to 100 meters, but it is worth while trying out every type of ammo you can get your hand on, to find the type that tunes with the vibrations in the long, thin barrel.

The backsight leaf should be graduated to 200 meters. As I have already explained, they do work at that distance, but do not expect great grouping.

You have got a rarity - not a backyard plinker!

Congratulations!

Patrick

P.S: unless you have sharp titanium fingernails, you will need an extractor! When you go to the range, be sure to take a long cleaning rod with you, so that you can push out the empty case!

[alamo308]

Alamo308's trainer
Alamo308, what you have is an example of the model that succeeded mine. It is basically the same, but with the metal box added to give it a Lebel-look.

It should have an extractor fork which pulls out the empty case, but no ejector. No bolt catch, as the bolt is simply released by depressing the trigger very firmly and pulling the bolt back. The bolt should NOT come out WITHOUT the trigger being depressed.

If you post a photo of the open action, showing the loading tray and breech, I may be able to advise you further. Photos of any markings on the action body would be informative.

You may well find other marks from subcontractors on various components, but probably no manufacturer's mark on the action body, as the final rifle was a military trainer, not a commercial rifle. Very similar rifles were offered on the open market ,under the fanciful name of "Buffalo Carbine" etc, but those have a different bolt action.

The backsight leaf should be graduated to 200 meters. As I have already explained, they do work at that distance, but do not expect great grouping.

You have got a rarity - not a backyard plinker!

Congratulations!

Patrick

WOW, thanks for the very comprehensive and informative response!

There is definitely no extractor, and I can't find any evidence on the bolt body of something "missing".

The bolt slides right out the back without depressing the trigger.

A commenter on another forum said the bore is slightly larger than .22 (resulting in poor accuracy), but when I insert a .22 cartridge head-first in the muzzle, it is very snug, and will not even come close to insert up to the case mouth.

I cannot find ANY marks, anywhere, in wood or metal, other than the many serial numbers, ...except for the "L L H" on the barrel near the receiver.

There are no graduations on the rear sight, so I will just have to experiment with different settings of the elevation adjustment screw. There is windage adjustment there also, with Left-Right reference index lines provided.

Thank you again, Patrick. I'll try to get some more pictures over the upcoming veterans holiday weekend.

Any guesses on the time frame when this rifle may have been built?

[Patrick Chadwick]

The commentator on the other forum seems have made the mistake of confusing the genuine military trainer with similar "plinkers" of the period made to take 6mm Flobert cartridges. Some guys at my club thought the same, until I pointed out that windage adjustable sights up to 200 meters would be wasted on a Flobert.
But please post a pic of the open breech area so that I can have a "long-distance look". I still feel that some kind of extractor, however simple, is missing.

A picture of the backsight leaf would also be interesting - windage adjustment, but no distance marking? Very odd.

On my "Nationale" trainer:
This is the backsight area.
Note the military-style numbering on the barrel ring!
Attachment 17001

This is the backsight.
Note the scaling to 200 meters.
Attachment 17002

This is with the bolt open, but not fully drawn back.
Note that the chamber rim is split - not obvious unless you look for it!
Attachment 17003

And this is with the bolt fully drawn back. Note that it has now pulled out the extractor fork.
Attachment 17004

If your rifle is made the same way, but the fork has become disconnected from the bolt body, then that would explain why a) you have no extractor action b) the bolt almost falls out of the action if you hold the rifle up and press the trigger.
Please take another very careful look, and post the same pics for your rifle.

Patrick

[tikkathreebarrels]

Yours is prettier than mine

[Patrick Chadwick]

Tikkathreebarrels, does yours have an extractor?

Patrick

[tikkathreebarrels]

Yessir, it certainly does, of the forked rod type which removes with the bolt. Obviously someone has taken a hammer/chainsaw to my woodwork in the past and it's all a bit of a monstrosity at preesent - home-made aluminium buttplate and all. One day it'll receive the benefit of some TLC in the form of a full length stock and a backsight. Here is the bolt/extractor arrangement, you're welcome to look at the other photos taken here: http://s303.photobucket.com/albums/n...this%20please/
:

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thanks tikka!
As I thought, the same basic mechanism as mine. My guess is that Alamo308 has one with the extractor fork disconnected and so fused in that it is invisible.

Re. backsight.
It's hard to tell without being able to put our rifles next to each other on the bench, but a copy of my backsight would be pretty close to what you need. Alternatively, I think the backsight from the War Office trainer would also serve as a model.

Re. wood.
I have the little Gras-vintage trainer AND a real full-size Gras-Chassepot (Grassepot?). For connoisseurs: the Model 66/74/80. BOTH of these rifles have the foreend wood in 2 pieces! There is a conical (not flat) scarf joint underneath the lower barrel band - rather like the renowned duffle-cut on GI bringbacks, but done quite meticulously. So you do not need to replace the complete foreend wood. If you make up the missing length with a scarf joint under the ring you are not Bubbaring or falsifying your trainer - you are doing what the French did themselves!

Patrick

[alamo308]

Maybe these will help solve the mystery?
I wonder if there is a possible 'fix' for the missing extractor/ejector?
No guesses as to the year(s) of production?

Rear sight... What appears as a vertical post there, is actually a spring-tensioned adjustment screw for elevation.
Attachment 17176

Attachment 17178

Attachment 17181

Attachment 17177

Attachment 17179

Attachment 17180

[tikkathreebarrels]

Maybe these will help solve the mystery?
I wonder if there is a possible 'fix' for the missing extractor/ejector?

WARNING WARNING WARNING:

I have another old single shot German rifle with a very similar spent case extractor which runs fore & aft in a similar groove in the bottom of the receiver. This does more than extract spent cases, it also supports the rim of the case and the brass wall just in front of it. On one occasion I took it to the range without the extractor and shot a few rounds off and stopped when it became obvious that the cases were fracturing under detonation where they were unsupported.

TAKE CARE MY FRIEND

I'd have thought it wouldn't be difficult to make one up if you have engineering skills. Let me know if you need some clear photographs of the missing part.