Bren gun figures 1940 and the fall of France

[Kev G]

As the discussion regarding Bren guns remaining in the UK after the fall of France in 1940 was merged in amongst the parent thread 'Enfield made MKII's ?' I have posted this to give the subject it's own discussion in the hope that it will stimulate some debate.

With many thanks to David Boyd and his extensive collection of PRO documents (20,000) which cover British WW2 UK production and the Ministry of Supply some more details are available from his records.

For ease of reference and to save typing out all the info here, David Boyd has an excellent website where the immediate aftermarth Dunkirk and the BEF loses in France and stock held in the UK can be seen here

The references and tables are from (MoS) Ministry of Supply files which I have copies of and can confirm the data relating to Bren holdings in the UK that are given are correct as per the original documents.

Note,as taken from MoS docs and shown on the website -,the equipment requirement of a token division includes all the initial equipment of an infantry division, its share of equipment from the armoured divisions, all equipment from non divisional troops and reserves. For example a regular infantry division required around 740 Bren guns while a "token" division requires 1,171.

The tables given are for "weapons in the hands of the Army in this country" and also include Air Defence of G.B.

Further to the information given on the website there are MoS docs which cover details of all UK Bren holdings, the Middle East and Defended Ports/garrisons abroad holdings.
These figures are for stocks held December the 1st 1940.
Monthly Bren deliveries going back from December to April have also been compiled so figures can be worked backwards.

War Office statement of stock -
UK Bren gun stocks Dec 1st 1940 - 26,591
ME Bren gun stocks Dec 1st 1940 - 7,280
DPA & OG's etc Bren gun stocks Dec 1st 1940 - 2,748

Total of Bren guns stocks Dec 1st 1940 - 36,619

If the monthly Bren production figures are subtracted from the 36,619 figure backwards , this would give a stock for August 1st of 27,052.
If the Dec Ist 1940 figures for ME and DPA & OG's stock is subtracted from the 27,052 figure for August it would still give a UK August 1940 stock of 17,024.

I don't know what the August 1940 non UK stocks were so have given a 'conservative' figure from Dec 40.

Total of Brens produced up until August 1940 is given as 39,277

Australian Bren production produced no guns in 1940
Canadian Bren production may have been about 1,600 in 1940 but none reached the UK in 1940 apart from 2 submitted for test/trial.
Non UK production can be disregarded when looking at the figures given for 1940.

From the MoS and War Office figures for Bren gun stocks held and delivered above it would suggest that the 2,300 figure of Brens remaining after the fall of France given from the War Office returns for the defence of the UK (given by the ALS in Aldershot) in August 1940 are in dispute by a large margin.

As the 2,300 figure is also used by Maj FWA Hobart which he gives his source as 'International Armament' - Johnson & Lockhoven does anyone have a copy of 'International Armament' to see where the figure in that publication is attributed to ?

As the MoS figures cover weeks,months and years over many pages of records the numbers recorded are not a one off typographical error or a misread that has compounded itself.

As has been said please don't shoot messenger !

ATB Kevin

Information

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[phoenix44]

Is it possible that the 2,300 figure, are guns that were returned from France and returned to army stock? Does anybody have any information regarding the German use of captured Bren's?
Peter.

[Peter Laidler]

Good bit of research KG. On that basis, and being that only the August/September 1940 figure is really in dispute - by a long margin apparently -, why don't you write up a short paper giving the fact AS THEY'RE KNOWN TODAY, then tabulate them, to come out with what would appear to be the true mathematical figure of Bren guns held in the UK and available for the defence of the Realm then.

It might upset a few people who have used these previously inaccurate figures, but that's life! I upset everyone who reads my Sten book over previous held beliefs being rubbished. But hey, that's life. Oh, yes...... I forgot to ask. When you have come up with a reassessed figure, can I use it in my book. It's not too late (yet....) to amend and add another chapter explaining the difference between the 2,300 and the new figure

[Brit plumber]

I'm confused Kev, are these figures for Dec 1st 1941 or 1940?

War Office statement of stock -
UK Bren gun stocks Dec 1st 1941 - 26,591
ME Bren gun stocks Dec 1st 1941 - 7,280
DPA & OG's etc Bren gun stocks Dec 1st 1941 - 2,748

Total of Bren guns stocks Dec 1st 1941 - 36,619

I would have expected that stock holdings would be well above the 100,000 mark by then. Enfield had produced about 100,000 Brens by Dec 41, take off 26,000 lost guns and thats still 70,000+ Brens that I'd expect to be in store/use, then throw in 17,000 Inglis guns and...

Anyway, am I missing somthing?

ATB, Chris.

[Kev G]

Corrected all 41 typos to 40

Refering back to the total stock of Brens on December the 1st 1940 which is given as 36,619 and if the amount of Brens delivered (48,844) up to the same date is subtracted it leaves a shortfall of 12,225.

The 12,225 short fall by December 1st 1940 would account for most of this figure being lost in 'the fall of France' but losses in Norway (total ?) before this and afterwards the Middle East(total ?) up to this date need to be taken into consideration.
Any other loses such as 'damaged beyond repair' etc also need to be factored in. (plus any other instances anyone else can think of ?)

ATB Kevin

[phoenix44]

I don't think small arms loses in Norway were high, as at Dunkirk, because the withdrawal was more orderly.I know that some heavier equipment was lost, 3,7 HAA guns and tractors and some carriers, due mainly to port facilites.So as the Bren's would have been carried aboard ship, I would have thought that the normal wastage figures due to damage or loss would apply.Did the army have such a figure to factor in how many extra guns they would need?
Peter.

[Peter Laidler]

Get writing that research paper KG.....................

[Brit plumber]

Last 1940 dated gun i know of is F1730, a 4th stage gun with matching barrel (The only Enfield Bren I have with the original 1940 barrel originally matched to the gun) barrel nut and lower. I'll need to go check the proof date but I'm sure both barrel and gun are proofed 1940, that would be 51,725 manufactured so 51,725 - 48,844 = 2881 guns on the production line or in racks at Enfield awaiting collection/delivery.

Just another piece of info thats of no use!!

[Kev G]

Chris,
Remember that the 48,844 is only up to December 1st,if you add Decembers delivered numbers (not produced) of 2,413 the total delivered up to the end of Dec 1940 is now 51,257 with 452 undergoing inspection.So F1730 isn't that far from the exit doors :-)

ATB Kevin

[Brit plumber]

Doh, I read 31st,

The figures work out really close.