Werder Carbine

[villiers]

Just missed buying this on German e-Gun. I´ve always been weak kneed whenever I see a really short old carbine. Even though I didn´t get it, I´m now hooked. But am still worried about ammo. Where would I get hold of brass that could be made into Werder 11mmm kurz. Or where can I read up on it?

Help very much appreciated,

Patrick

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[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick to Patrick:

No problem, the cases are made by Horneber, and are listed in my 2008/9 edition of the Johanssen Wiederlader Katalog (also available online).

I can only find very sparse info on the Werder rifle, and nothing at all on the Werder carbine.
For such esoteric items (like my Grenzaufseher rifle) you need to work out how to feed it before buying the rifle!

[villiers]

Have solved the re-loading question for Werder (short). Will now just have to w...a...i...t until I can find one again. Then I´ll jump on it and most probably get a lemon.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Good luck! It'll cost you- very collectable!

[smellie]

Some lemons are worth going after!

Had a Werder Blitz-pistole in my hands for half an hour, many years ago.

Same mechanism as shown here. I have always since wondered just how you would go about loading it at a dead gallop!

Carbine shown here is definitely the finest I have ever seen photos of.

Is it okay to want one even though you KNOW they cost too much?
.

[gunner]

Hi Patrick (aka Villiers),

maybe that is an good one for you

Waffenhandel im Spessart


Regards

Ulrich

[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick to Patrick,

the one you missed seems, at first glance, to have been a bargain. However, there is not much in the way of bargains in those on-line auctions.
Note that the carbine was not in original condition - the stock is non-original. That is a big minus point for collectors, because it is a irreversible alteration. For a shooter, like myself, that is not so important. But you might have trouble at a competition, where the non-original butt form would be a knock-out criterion. And the barrel was described as "rough" with "fields and grooves visible".

Like the house adverts, where "ideal prospect for renovation" means a crumbling heap that costs you more to do up than a new house would cost, I have learnt the hard way to assume that the seller is being as optimistic as he feels he can get away with. So I interpret "rough" as "horrible" and "fields and grooves visible" as "you can see that it once had rifling".

So what do you have in the end - not good as a collector's piece, not good for competition, and probably a lousy shooter. You don't need to cry over that one.

The one on the link provided by Gunner looks very good. But it is in a price range where you don't just expect good - you expect perfect.

These two examples explain why my "Monster from the Swamp" M1871 is the sort of rifle I personally go for - outside horrible, but 100% matching, with an as-new bore (well, it was before I used it!) and functionally perfect.

That kind of rifle gives me the best price/performance satisfaction, especially when I can beat some of the 4-figure collector's pieces. Dings on the wood I can improve or live with, but how do you put back missing rifling!

I shall now go and gloat over my ... euro Artillery Luger. It came from a dealer. On eGun it would have been more like 1... euros. I won't say what ... was, as people would think I was lying.

Not true, I'm just showing off!

- But for a good purpose - to encourage you - there are good shooters to be had at favorable prices. You just have to put up with ploughing through the overpriced 99% to find one.

Patrick

[villiers]

Patrick from Patrick ...

Have taken your (very good) advice ... and got the `71 Mod. short carbine that was on the auction site recently (haven´t got it yet, but it´s on its way). It´s `Spandau´ made, so I kind of fell for it. So now have a Werder tool that I´ll auction off some day. Maybe I´ll find a Werder cav. carbine after a while.
PS
Is the `71 difficult to re-load for??

Patrick for gunner ...

many thanx. I´d found that by Googling. But have tried to get him on the `phone, and e-mailed ... but no answer. Maybe `cos he´s Bavarian?

[Patrick Chadwick]

... and got the `71 Mod. short carbine that was on the auction site recently (haven´t got it yet, but it´s on its way). It´s `Spandau´ made, so I kind of fell for it. So now have a Werder tool that I´ll auction off some day. Maybe I´ll find a Werder cav. carbine after a while. PS Is the `71 difficult to re-load for??

Congratulations Patrick!

If you have any BP reloading experience, the M71 cartridge is no problem. All the components you need are in the Johannsen catalog (available online).

The Lee die set is cheap and effective. But get an RCBS case holder - the rim broke off my Lee holder, and it was very annoying to extract the jammed case. As a result of this experience, I now do decapping with a universal decapping die, so that the sizer is used without the decapping pin.

Get some Horneber cases. With the barest necessary neck resizing they will last almost indefinitely.
Get the RCBS mold 44-370-FN (Johannsen No. RR82093) to cast 0.446 bullets.
And some Swiss No 4 powder.
And Large Rifle Magnum primers.
And some fairly soft BP lube.
And a 12mm punch to make wads from waxed milk cartons.

And post some photos for the rest of us to drool over!
And then I will post complete details of a proven load.

Patrick

[gunner]

Patrick for gunner ...

many thanx. I´d found that by Googling. But have tried to get him on the `phone, and e-mailed ... but no answer. Maybe `cos he´s Bavarian?

Naah Patrick, Bavarians are normally good and reliable person! So he must be from a place upwards of the Danube River.....