Need some advice

[wslsr]

I need some advice. I have a very nice 1942 Long Branch which I think is original and is one of my favorite rifles. However, there is a gap between the rear of the forearm and the butt socket, the gap measures 0.018 – 0.020 inches on the left side and the right side (lower corner) is tight. It appears that the lower right side corner of the forearm is the only area bearing against the butt socket. Also, when I remove the front trigger guard screw and trigger guard I can move the stock longitudinal about 0.005 inches. When the trigger guard and trigger guard screw are assembled there is no movement. I did remove the trigger guard screw sleeve or collar and reassembled without the sleeve, the sleeve/collar is a tad long so I will file it down. My concern is the uneven bearing of the forearm on the butt socket and the slight movement of the forearm when the trigger guard is removed. Is this a problem? Is this rifle safe to shoot or will shooting the rifle crack or damage the stock?

Several months ago purchased a gallon of raw linseed oil. I am hoping that soaking the forearm in RLO will tighten up the fit.

Photo no 1 shows lower right corner which is tight, the lower rt corner is the only area bearing on the butt socket
Photo no 2 shows 0.018 - 0.020 gap on the left side
Photo no. 3 shows no gap using 0.002
Photo no. 4 shows 0.003 gap on the bottom side

best regards, scott

Information

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[303Nut]

Have you removed the butt stock to see what is going on?

[RJW NZ]

Hi Wslsr, first of all, good spotting and for then deciding to do something about it.
No bones about it, fore and aft movement of the fore end is a must fix in enfields.
It can easily result in deeply splitting the stock when fired and pulling the jagged ends back towards your eyes, been there, done that
There is a proper method (here) for determining the length of the front screw collar and I strongly recommend reading that before shortening it, there is a method that give best results.
My comments are not based in decades of experience like others you will get here shortly but this might get you started at least.
(first off, welcome to the forum, and here's a plug to a enfield useful site, enfieldresource.com, 150 links for enfields.)

First off; two things to check, if you're sure the collar needs shortening, find out why. Its not common at all for this to happen, but can happen when the wood is dried out and collapses a little, or a previous owner has taken the collar out, tightened it hard and somewhat crushed the wood, and then later the collar has been reinstated. The wood bulk can reconstitute with linseed oil as you've said. If the wood is badly worn, it is is quite visible, we're not talking subtle.
But, before going deep into this, you need to examine the recoil lug area of the wood inside the forearm, these can take a battering, and if the fit to the metal work is loose because the wood lugs have crushed or damaged. If they are then it can show up as free movement at the wrist as you've described.

20 thou is quite a lot of free space to have on one side of the wrist and is not ideal.

If it was mine;
If the fore arm wood is in as good as shape internally as it looks externally, then I'd shorten the collar as per the instructions, and get a great tight fit on it.
Then, with the trigger guard installed but the screws loosened off, move the fore arm forward to create as much gap as possible at the wrist, then, figure out a method to fill that gap so that its firmly closed.There are several methods; build up the wood above and below the strap with layers of paper and glue, or thin wood and glue, and sand then back slowly with many fitting on and off the rifle, until that gap has gone.

Two things to check first; take the mag and bolt out, slide the fore arm forward as possible, jam it there with cardboard in the wrist area, then inside the mag channel you can see the lugs, and get a really good look at whatever gap there might be on the recoil lugs and where they meet the wood. If the wood is crushed or not contacting the metal work, a proper fix is required. One method is to remove the damaged wood, about 1/4 inch back, and glue in a couple of hardwood blocks to take up all the gap. Or, a fix for soft wood on aussie no1 mk3's in ww2 was to cut the wood back a little, and then install a pair of copper squares that are held down with wood screws, and they take up the gap and protect the wood. They show up online, via members, and can easily be made too.

but ...before doing this, set the gun upright in a stand, take off the handgaurds, wedge the fore arm in it two positions, as far forward and as far back at it will go, and at the front end check to see that the barrel is centered in the barrel channel. When there's a lop sided gap at the wrist, it can create a barrel that sits to one side in the channel, not ideal for accuracy. You'll get it dialed in for 100 yards but at 300 it not only require elevation adjustments but also now also be shooting off to one side , a sure sign of a left or right leaning barrel.

If this is the case, when filling the gap at the back of the fore arm you have to do it with the arm pushed forward to take up any slack, and also you must only do it with the barrel in the center of the channel. That way under recoil the forces will keep everything in parallel and not creating new stresses.

You're on the right path ...

Just to tease I added my two all time favorite pics from a recent post, showing the tightest wrist/wood fit I have ever ever ever seen on an enfield. a No1 Mk3 1944.

[Peter Laidler]

Cutting to the quick WSL, if you can move your fore-end fore and aft, then it means, in short, that the draws are worn out. If you want an explanation why, then it's because the fore and aft movement of the fore-end is controlled by being tapered up tight between these draws and the butt socket. If the fore-end fits in all other respects, then in my very limited experience with No4's, then you cut them out as per an article published here a year or so ago, make good and refit the fore-end to the rifle.

I know others have other ideas but the fore-end MUST be drawn back (hence the name DRAWS = to draw the fore-end backwards and hence the reason they are tapered the way they are.....)) towards the butt socket. Anything else is a palliative and NOT a cure.

Maybe someone who is compu'a lit'rate can bring up the article wot I did about patching draws........... It's the only thing you can do

[Amatikulu]

Peter's article

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...ter-Laidler%29

[wslsr]

303Nut,
I have removed the butt stock, the fit on the butt is very tight.

RJW NZ,

you have given me some things to consider, thanks for your input. I removed the magazine catch and sear to get a good look at the lug area, it looks very nice, both lugs have good contact. the barrel is marked 42 and in great shape, the rifleing looks new, I doubt the rifle has seen very much use. the wood at the lug area does not look damaged. If I apply good forward pressure on the forearm I can see a very small gap (0.003) on the lower right corner of the forearm. close inspection of the rear of the forearm you can see the rear plane where it contacts the butt socket is uneven. I do think a good soaking in RLO may tighten up the the forearm, however I will not have even bearing at the rear of the forearm on the butt socket. will soaking the forearm in RLO close a 0.003 gap?


Looking at the alignment of the barrel, the barrel is centered in the forearm. I will research the front screw collar.


So if I understand correctly I have three possible solutions:

1. wedge the forearm forward and apply bedding material to level the back of the forearm.

2. level or file the back of the forearm to create uniform bearing surface and then replace the draws with new wood. If I level the back of the forearm I may be removing 0.018 in some areas. adjusting the fit by removing wood will cause the forearm will move aft or rearward, this will affect the alignment of the trigger guard screw, how much can I adjust the forearm rearward?

3. replace the forearm.

My initial thought is to soak the forearm in RLO and then check the bearing on the butt socket.


Thanks for your input.

[wslsr]

Peter,

I have read your article on "Worn draws in your No1, 4 or 5 fore-end", very informative. I was hoping to avoid this but if it is the correct fix I will head in this direction. So to correctly fit of the forearm should I level the surface on the rear of the forearm to create a uniform bedding surface on the butt socket and then replace the draws? how much can I file off the back end of the forearm without affecting the alignment of the trigger guard screw. Also what is the best way to remove the wood, I assume with a wood chisel?

[RJW NZ]

Hi wslsr, Peters advice is golden, and anything he recommends will be the right stuff ...

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Hi there, wslr;

Moving on to the butt of that rifle:

It appears that you have a small crack forming on the RHS of the wrist. Also there appears ro be some rust "leaking" out of the join.

The trick with butts is that they are NOT meant to have an "airtight" fit on the outer surfaces. All the recoil forces are supposed to be transmitted via the shaped surface INSIDE the socket. If the outer surfaces are bearing hard against the outer ring of the socket, the combination of pressure from the stock bolt and recoil impulses WILL cause splitting of the timber on the outer surfaces.

The interior of the socket and the mating surfaces on the butt are tapered. Fitting a totally new butt requires a lot of force. Originally butts were stored for quite some time in linseed oil and then fitted using a special press to ensure there was ZERO play once fully seated. That is part of the problem of fitting a new butt using only the "issue" screwdriver; it is almost impossible. Never mind that most people are unlikely to have a drum of spare butts quietly soaking in linseed oil. And if you "trim" the wrist to make it go in easier, you are asking for trouble as the wood dries out.

Mr. Enfield had a wicked sense of humour.

[Peter Laidler]

That's an interesting question Whistler! To be honest, I don't ever receal fitting a fore-end where the rear is not square or even with the front of the butt socket! But if I was you, I'd gingerly and carefully level it off before you did anything else. Once you've got that, you can patch the draws. We used to just mill out the patch area as per the pics but a good sharp chisel will do just as well. Obviously at out big BASE workshops, we production-lined a lot of the work. But the .018" you mention should not affect anything

The fit of the butt is a bit of a red herring here as the two are not connected unless the stock bolt is protruding through the socket into and bearing up against the fore-end. But as Bruce in Oz and RJW say, theere should be a gap, the width of, say, a hacksaw blade between the butt socket and the butt and the wood of the butt should be slightly proud of the socket itself. It's the bit of the butt INSIDE the butt socket and the actual taper that dictates how tight it is - plus the size of he gorilla on the other end of the screwdriver, bit, stock bolt!