308 vs 7.62

[Oatmeal Savage]

I know that this topic has been beat to death in other forums and you hear just as many pros as cons, but you guys are the folks I trust and respect, so here goes... Can I fire .308 in my Isaphore 2A?

Thanks
OS

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[sdh1911]

I can't speak for anyone else, But I've been doing it for years with no problems. To be a little more specfic, I use .308 headspace guages in 7.62 chambers and have never had any problems with the finished product. Also shoot .308 in my #4 Mk1 Savage and it works well. There may be a very slight tolerance differance between the two, but as long as it head spaces within tolerance you should be just fine. When I cut a chamber for a .308 I go 0.003" over dead nuts and get very good results. HTH-SDH

[Claven2]

Some people will tell you not to. I personally think as long as you stay with the 147 or 150gr military equivalent weighted projectile and "normal" moads developping NATO-like pressures you should be fine.

Don't go shooting Hornady Light Mags in it FOR SURE.

[Claven2]

Ok, well I just learned from a thoughtful source that pm'd me that apparently Hornady Light mags develop the same pressure as factory .308 does.

I still personally would avoid it just in case, but I'm a huge scaredy cat!!!

[Cantom]

I know that this topic has been beat to death in other forums and you hear just as many pros as cons, but you guys are the folks I trust and respect, so here goes... Can I fire .308 in my Isaphore 2A?

Thanks
OS

I wouldn't advise it.
(Cross posted from elsewhere)

<Just a point of interest, an establishment in UK (I forget which) has done tests on the steel used in the 2A and 2A1 and it was found that there is no difference between the steel used in the SMLE and the steel used in the 2A(1).
Now that the 7.62mm rifles have been in civilian hands for quite some time it will be interesting to see if any of them start to develop problems. >

__________________________________________________ _____________


>I was just looking at the Enfield web page and was noticing that Skip
>Stratton was looking for info on unsafe Ishapore 2A/2A1's that HAVE failed.
>I know a dealer posted that he
> knows of a dozen people who now have wallhangers due to modern civilian (
>re Winchester, Remington etc) 308 Winchester being used in the 2A/ A1
>
>Was it Dennis Kroh? or maybe another dealer. Or maybe Great Southern Arms.
>I'm unsure.

Yeah, Brock, it was me.

Although I do not have first-hand knowledge of catastrophic failure of the
"Ishies" I was alerted by at least a dozen of my customers over the past two
years whose first indication that "something's not right" was extractor
breakage upon firing, and wanted me to find and replace for them a new
extractor. I got tired of doing this as if replaced the extractors would
just break again with the next firing, so something else must be wrong.

When I looked at these rifles the first thing I did was a headspace-check.
In EVERY instance the headspace had increased so much that the bolt would
readily close on a mis-spec 7.62 NATO FIELD guage (which has more generous
tolerances than does a commercial .308 FIELD guage, which I also have).
Now, not all of these rifles were originally purchased from me... but the
ones that had been would not close on my NO-GO commercial guage much less a
mil-spec one when I checked them myself before putting them up for sale.

In EVERY case the shooter admitted to firing from 40-100 rounds of
commercial .308 NATO through his rifle (one guy had taken three wild boar
and a deer with his, and considered it his "lucky" gun because it was so
accurate).

I have to believe that there must be a link between these customers. I know
of three people (including myself) whose Ishie rifles are still tight as
hell but the thing is none of us have fired any commercial ammo through them
(though I have put several hundred rounds of mil-spec 7.62 NATO through my
personal arm, without any ill effects whatsoever).

This cannot all be a COINCIDENCE... there has to be a reason doesn't there?

Dennis Kroh, owner, Empire Arms, kroh@empirearms.com
PO Box 2634, Ormond Beach, FL 32175
Phone (904) 677-7314 FAX 677-7324
web-site: http://www.empirearms.com

__________________________________________________ _______________

From my reading the #1s converted to 7.62mm in Australia showed receiver stretching after very short order and eventual cracking at the charger bridge. Even welding a strap from the charger to the receiver ring did not help the stretching problem. If the 2A is made from the same stuff as the #1 wouldn't it exhibit the same rapid failure as the Australian converted rifles?

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

A few problems exist with these...

1.) They have 12 round mags which aren't legal to import.

2.) They're not safe to fire .308 commercial ammo in (even in small doses). And, they are likely at the edge of what's safe for 7.62 Nato. I had a long talk with Dennis Kroh about this (owner of Empire Arms, definetly knows his stuff and is a straight shooter).

Here's what he said...

When these first arrived on our shores they sold 20. Out of the 20, 16 developed excessive headspace issues (some after firing only a box or two of commercial .308. So, 16 became wall hangers. He is also aware of one catastrophic failure that caused a serious injury (luckily not from a rifle he sold, but at a local range). Now, to their credit AIM does say use only 7.62 NATO ammo. However, Dennis feels that even this is pushing the limit for these rifles. Contrary to what some say these were not made out of any special steel.

Even if you already have mags I would pass on these. Sometimes one's safety is worth more than a 169 dollar rifle.

3.) One more thing...these being less than 50 years of age...require an FFL 1.


From a post Dennis made...

Actually we neither buy nor sell Ishapore Enfields chambered in 7.62 NATO.
We had done so when they were first imported, but over HALF of the ones we bought and sold during that period ended up with headspace problems that relegated them to "wallhanger" status after firing as little as one box of commercial .308 Winchester ammo in them.

The first sign of trouble was that the extractor broke off and the owners wanted to know where they could obtain a replacement extractor.

Further inspection of their rifle found that the headspace of every one of the suspect rifles (though they had been previously checked by us before selling them) had been stretched beyond FIELD limits and were no longer safe to fire (it was the extreme bulging of the base of the case that caused the ejector to break).

I have personally seen one person (thank GOD he didn't buy it from us) at a local range, get severely injured in the groin after his Model 2A1 Ishapore Enfield had a intense gas-rupture and "let go" when firing it, blowing the loaded magazine under high-pressure out of the rifle and landing between his legs.

This "accident" required major hospitalization and surgery to repair his grievious and painful injury. This guy was so CLEVER that even after the extractor broke-off of his Ishapore Model 2A1 rifle (hello. . . serious WARNING SIGN there. . . ) he continued to shoot it at the range while simply knocking out the empty case after every shot by running a cleaning-rod down the barrel rather than attempt to purchase another extractor!

Little wonder that his wife forbid him from owning even a single firearm after that experience (we ended up buying every gun he owned or will ever own from her).

Nahhh. . . we won't find or sell you one of these rifles. . . we like you too much!


------------------
Denny Kroh, owner, EMPIRE ARMS
email: kroh@empirearms.com
website: http://www.empirearms.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Cantom]

This one made me laugh...

If you do purchase this then keep us up to date and document the head spacing carefully and don't forget to duck when you shoot it, also it may pay to put a bullet proof vest over your crotch if you plan to make more babies or at least enjoy practicing making them with the wife.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?p=332797

[spetznatz]

I have fired about 800rds of .308Win through my 2A with no problem.

[Claven2]

I wonder if those bafoons that wrecked their guns were shooting 180 grain loads in their guns. I bet they were.

7.62 NATO is supposed to fire a 147 grain projectile. Asking a 2A1 to handle more than that is asking for trouble IMHO. I don't care what the design might be capable of, the Indians fired LOTS of NATO ammo in these and most were surplused in good, useable condition. If people are wrecking them it's because they aren't shooting the right ammo.

[Swede]

This may not change your minds but take a look and see what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51_mm_NATO

[markw76]

I personally wouldn't have a problem shooting US military 7.62 rounds in one, but the military high pressure test isn't far above SAAMI spec for .308 Winchester. I do not shoot commercial ammunition in my M1A, PERIOD, for this, gas port pressure and dimensional considerations. Same goes for any gas gun. It is probably a good idea to stick to mild, ie target handloads of moderate pressure and velocity. 180gr projectiles shouldn't be a problem if the velocity/pressure is kept to a moderate value. A chronograph can be had for the price of a rifle. Milsurp ammunition, even if NATO marked, can always be questionable if its storage history is unknown. You don't want to fire a round that's been stored at a high temperature in the past, especially if a double-based powder has been used. The sweated-out nitroglycerine doesn't so much burn as detonate.