DP L54 Brens

[Peter Laidler]

Here’s a question for you US Forumers following a request where I was asked recently where someone could obtain a rare L54 Bren for his collection……….. Those Bren parts kits…. Are they readily available and are they cheap? The next question is this. What would happen if you welded the body together again? Not in a way to make a rebuilt gun, but in a way that would look half decent but maybe not work? In other words, it’d still be a dewat (or deactivated) but not functioning.

Where I’m heading is this……… One of/maybe the rarest of the ‘official’ Bren guns is the MACHINE GUN, DP, .303” BREN L54A1. You know the thing, looks good, white markings but useless. A bit like a mickey-mouse watch. Good to look at but useless for telling the time……..

With a half decent parts kit, a Bren collector could complete his collection by making up a passable representation of a rare DP Bren. To be honest, once the kit was fully converted to DP spec, even the remainder of the parts, such as the barrel and breech block would be beyond any sort of serviceability in any case

It’s just a thought but anyone over in the US care to pass comment…….

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[ZB26]

The BREN kits are still readily available, but not as plentiful as previous years, or in as good condition. Previous kits were cut down by saw cut, but currents ones out there were torch cut which makes parts look very distorted. Another problem recently is that barrels are no longer allowed in, so the kits often are barrel-less. However, the barrels can be purchased separately from other sources, so a complete parts kit can still be pulled together. For example, you can get Mk.I and Mk.II kits here, and they are not all that expensive.
http://www.weaponeer.net/productcart...8&idproduct=45
http://www.weaponeer.net/productcart...8&idproduct=46

As for rewelding the gun, it is the receiver that is considered firearm, thus welding the receiver pieces back into a firing machine gun configuration would be highly illegal. To do the reweld legally, a person would have to modify the receiver pieces so that there is no way to make the assembled item function as firearm. By this I mean that the receiver must be rendered inoperable when put together, this is because it is the receiver that's considered as "firearm". In other words, as long as receiver is destroyed or not able to function as firearm, you don't have to perform alternations to other parts of the Dewat, such as milled out bolt, or drill hole in barrel, etc.

By the way, the parts kit can still be made into a semi-auto firearm if the reweld and modification was done based on gov't approved semi-auto design. I'm not sure what a DP L54 BREN is, but as long as it's not serviceable the way it is put together, then it's no longer a firearm, and would be OK to have.

[Peter Laidler]

Thanks for that ZB. From that, we can assume that if you welded up the cut receiver so that it looked good but still remained, internally, say, a dewat/inert/deactivated sack of cra- and totally unuseable, then you could still have it in a collection, dressed up as a very rare and inoperable L64 DP Bren.

If anyone is considering this, then let me know and I'll explain what needs to be done to the remainder of the bits and the markings in order to add this official but rare Bren to your collection. After all, when you got it it didn't work and it's still not going to work when it's a DP..........

Thanks again ZB

[ZB26]

You're welcome Peter, I'm glad to provide info and contribute to the general knowledge of the forum (in fact, this placed seems to be THE PLACE for Bren knowledge on the web). You guys have put in a lot of useful info here!

As for L54 DP, I'd definitely be interested to finding out more about the configuration. It sounds like a version that was along the line of L4 conversion on the Bren? In fact, if it's an official designation, I think it'd be great to add a brief description to the Wikipedia entry for BREN gun:
Bren light machine gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Peter Laidler]

The L54 was a conversion of the Mk1,2 and 3 Bren gun so that all 'dry' training could be carried out in the usual way with a 'real' gun. BUT, the actual gunbs were usually old worn out guns that had been extensively modified so that even with the interchange of components, the gun could never be used again as a firearm. It was so structurally weakened and so marked that it was clear to all exactly what it was........ and more importantly, what it wasn't!

But these 'guns' were an official issue and form a part of the history of the Bren Gun.

After the conversion to L54 DP specification, their security classification was altered and as such, they could be kept in reasonably secure Cadet Force buildings and used in barrack rooms overnight without fear or the usually strict security atmosphere.

THere was an L4 7.62mm version of the DP Bren called the L55. Same meat, different gravy so to speak but only 67 were authorised for conversion and I've only ever seen two of them because the actual drills and firing sequences/orders were identical, the original .303 guns were used.

The official designation was 'MACHINE GUN, DRILL L54A1' but I've seen it engraved on the guns and written in many different ways. But still an official 'gun' and the last in the line from that famous Bren stable

[WallyG.]

Peter et al:

As all here know... in the USA the ATFE is the controlling entity for what is and is not legal. Unfortunately, this body does not apply regulation in a maner that is entirely intuitive. For a demilled Bren receiver to be reassembled (reweld the cut sections) into a representative D.P. and be legal... the ultimate control is whether the receiver is "readily restorable" to function as a machine gun. First... before any receiver sections are rejoined... each/or materially all of the sections must be modified to a state where full auto fire components can not be introduced or attached. Typically this invilves modifications to prevent the use of the full auto internal reciprocating parts - bolts and bolt carriers, gas pistons. In addition the trigger mechanisms must be modified to not accept the full auto originals - to include sears and selector levers. Only then can the sections be rejoined by welding. However, the ATFE prefers to be the judge of whether efforts are sufficient... and they prefer that a D.P. weapon be submitted to them for "approval"... In many cased they require that the entire internal receiver cavity be materially obstructed with welded in blocks of steel. This obstruction will prevent many of the functions that a D.P. was intended to demonstrate. Also (if this wasn't enough) in many cases (these original parts function blocking efforts are usually gun design specific) the barel is required to be welded into the gun and the bore/chamber obstructed - or both. In some cases (MG-42 comes to mind) the receiver is even required to be shortened in OAL. A private individual can take steps that to all would be considered sufficient to prevent "readily restorable" and still not pass ATFE muster - the builder assumes this risk. However, many "deactivated" guns are in the US market that are "home built" but have not been blessed by ATFE - these carry a risk of prosecution if ATFE were to be so inclined. Unfortunately, for this thread's inquiry... most of the useful demonstration features of a D.P. would be lost in satisfying the ATFE. The D.P. type guns sold for sale tend to have false billet receivers - many machined from sold aluminum (IMA comes to mind as having made some for sale). So for around 400.00 in materials you can create one... but it will differ materially from the original weapon and probably not perform many of a D.P.s functions... other than sit about and collect dust. And to be safe... once built - send it to ATFE for approval... it will either come back aproved or they will keep it (failed) and have it destroyed... and there goes your $400.00. This is essentially our situation... but to quote a learned source "But I could be wrong."

[Peter Laidler]

Thatks for that very thorough answer Wally. I was thinking of a way where US and maybe Canadian Bren collectors could obtain a DP Bren cheaply, simply and lawfully by using a parts kit. And thereafter, have, legally, one of the very last official Brens - albeit in non firing DP format. Ah well, maybe it wasn't to be and the enigmatic L54 DP Bren remains another rare bird.......................

[WallyG.]

You are quite welcome! Will your book contain details on how a true D.P. gun was modified? I would love to know what parts were modified and how... to disable function yet retain the purpose of properly demonstrating the weapon's function. I have some Indian D.P. internals that are copper plated... It would be nice to set up a D.P. that could use them... Note: as long as the receiver is not rewelded a parts kit can be assembled... the sections all are nicely help together on the slide... and if the torch slag is ground and filed away... all internals will function as designed - closing from the open bolt condition with a trigger pull and a resounding clank.

[Peter Laidler]

Yes, it does detail the DP L54 guns and the features employed to ensure that they remain safe, even if they fell into the wrong hands. Your info proved most enlightening Wally

[WallyG.]

The US makers of semi-auto Brens have to follow essentially the same steps... but instead of just making alterations to prevent the use of key full auto internal components - the receiver is also modified to block full auto parts yet accept modified or uniquely semi-auto parts. Since in addition to the "readily restorable to full auto function" prohibitions... ATFE regulation 922r also prohibits the assembly of certain imported weapons using more than 10 "evil" parts from a list that ATFE has published... many of the parts on the "evil" list tend to be newly manufactured US copies of the originals... some examples are... triggers, gas pistons, magazine base plates, wooden butt stocks and wooden pistol grips, etc. Since the receiver chunks are legally scrap the semi-auto receiver is typically considered a newly made US part. The bolt carrier is also so heavily modified that it can count as a US remanufactured part. There are several approved semi-auto designs that are striker fired (ATFE says no open bolt guns) so various combinations of full auto parts denial techniques and new/US made can be employed to satisy ATFE. Oddly, considering ATFE's strict regulation where possible, a US citizen can build a semi-auto Bren for their own personal use - without any Federal manufacturing liscense from the Govt. - some States may have additional prohibitions though. I'm sure Brian Dick can fill you in on at least one design's specifics as he has had at least one semi-auto in his shop and I'm sure he took it down to see how it functioned. He may have even done so by now.