"No4T" For Sale on CGN.

[Stevo]

This doesn't sound right to me. Comments?

Actually, after reading it through again, it sounds like complete fabrication.

Yes, a 1942 No4 Sniper for $1300.

We are refering to a rifle very close to the early days of the British WW2 Sniper program.

Most of us have seen the 1944 and 1945 dated T's with all the established proofs, accoutrements, and some evidence of history with the depot armourers we can trace back.

We are talking about a 1942 Sniper here! The book hadn't been written yet and here is what we know.

It is an all Savage 1942 rifle that was taken as new and converted to a T by Enfield in 1942 except he front sight blade is very fine and Brit.

It is an extremely clean rifle has crate wear in the form of dings and dents typical of being in boxes and on racks.
The Enfield cyphers are evident on the metal and wood...take note...not BSA!
BSA Shirley M47C made most of the Sniper candidates much later and they followed long established specifications.

Enfield made up the first group of Brit Snipers. Apparently the program moved forward and this is where the Savage connection apparently began.

New Savages were being delivered to the UK. A number of these were used as Sniper candidates thru the installation of early Enfield 5 groove barrels, the revision to the sight, and the addition of the Sniper Scope pads.
These rifles for the most part were not finished in to complete kits with Scopes and transit boxes. I have been told that there was a need for them and then Brit rifles and scopes filled in this perceived gap. Most will agree that the scopes were the hardest component of the Commonwealth Sniper program for the suppliers to deliver.

This rifle does not exibit later attributes such as marked with a T, it is not, it does not have any BSA proofs the later rifles have, as it was an Enfield conversion. The bases are not staked, that was done when a scoped rifle came in from the field for a tune up by an armourer after being issued for awhile.

I asked to see the handguards off the rifle before taking it in so I could make sure it was an early Enfield barrel.

The rifle has been back in Canada for some time and has been up North.
This rifle has not been messed with as long as I have known about it, that's the only guarantee I can give. I have asked several people with T backgrounds to give an opinion on the rifle and it's value and we think it's the real deal. Remember the saying to buy the rifle and not the story.

I have priced this rifle based on a decent unscoped Brit rifle.
Should I keep it? Probably! Is it a good long term investment? Probably!
Please pm me with questions etc.
Priced at $1300 plus shipping Cheers Paul

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Claven2]

A few years ago, about 200 or so of these Savage 4T's without scopes and lacking all the accepted final sniper proofs were importwed to the states still in the grease. Thought at the time is they were prepped for sniper conversion or to act as replacement rifles for guns that got damaged beyond economical repair but where the scope and accessories were still OK.

I've not heard much on them since and don't know of this is legitimately such a rifle.

Take that for what it's worth...

[Stevo]

Were those guns marked No4T or did they lack all T markings? How about the unstaked mounts?

[Claven2]

I honestly don't know, Stevo.

[Badger]

Hi Stevo ...

For a Savage partial conversion, yes, she's all correct, including the "S51" stamped into wood under the butt stock. This is one of an unknown number of serial number "13Cxxxx" Savages (I've found at least three others in research today) that went to England and the conversion process was started by Holland and Holland (S51). Both Laidler (who made some mistakes about them in his last book, but is correcting them in his next book), as well as Skennerton comment on them as an anomaly in the evolution of the No.4(T).

In checking the serial number references, here's the range for regular Savages ...

0C3870 - 1942 MKI lowest # 1942 date
13C2752 - 1942 MKI highest MKI # 1942 date

13C2845 - 1942 MKI* lowest MKI* # 1942 date
36C1916 - 1942 MKI* highest MKI* # 1942 date

BTW, this one is now SOLD !!!

Regards,
Badger

[stencollector]

Were those guns marked No4T or did they lack all T markings? How about the unstaked mounts?

Staking of the mounts was a post war (or at least a post factory) modification to help prevent pads from working loose.

This is a fairly unique rifle. I didn't think it would last long. Not sure what he meant by it having an Enfield barrel. Was the change to an Enfield barrel SOP for the Savage conversions? I thought early Savages had the highly sought after 6 groove barrels.

[Badger]

I thought the Enfield barrel comment was odd as well, but after speaking with him, I don't think he quite understood a lot of the information behind these "never scoped" Savages.

I had asked Lance about it and here's what he had to say:

Very few, if any were converted at Enfield, most were H&H conversions. This example you have to buy should have the "S51" mark on the butt if the butt is original (as it appears in the photo's). BSA made most of the rifle's that were converted by H&H, they did not do the conversion so any BSA mark on the rifle means a part has been replaced.

Early Savage rifle's had a 6 groove bore that for some reason the British did not like thus they rebarreled a lot of the unfinished Savage's. Per this guy's description the barrel has been replaced which is common but highly unlikely it is a Enfield barrel, more likely it is a barrel from BSA, Maltby, Fazakerly, etc.

In any event, I'll be picking up this rifle on Saturday.... ..... so if I get a chance I'll do some better pics and post them...

Regards,
Badger

[Lee Enfield]

Staking of the mounts was a post war (or at least a post factory) modification to help prevent pads from working loose.

This is a fairly unique rifle. I didn't think it would last long. Not sure what he meant by it having an Enfield barrel. Was the change to an Enfield barrel SOP for the Savage conversions? I thought early Savages had the highly sought after 6 groove barrels.

My 90L LB was last Brit inspected in 1961 (according to the tags) it's pads were never staked.

The barrels which were replaced were 2 groove barrels.

According to sources such as Payne, most of the Savages with 5 groove barrels have '45 dated Enfield mfg barrels.

A number of Savages & Maltbys "snuck" through the 5gr MkI barrel requirement and were converted & then issued with 2gr MkII barrels.

The conjecture seems to be that the majority of the (Savage) rifles were converted, put into stores and re-barreled during the FTR programs after the war to bring them up to the "accepted" No4T status.

Supposedly this may have been because the Savages were supposed to be returned to the US or destroyed under the terms of the Lend Lease agreements; and the Brit factories were catching up with No4T production goals.

IIRC Laidler?? (and others) addressed the Lend Lease Q recently on Jouster, and pointed out that the Brits only got the go-ahead to retain Lend Lease equipment after the Korean War started.

[Lee Enfield]

Were those guns marked No4T or did they lack all T markings? How about the unstaked mounts?

The "accepted" T markings evolved from 1942-43 and seem to have coalesed by '43-'44.

By this time the rifles were all from BSA and the conversion work continued from H&H starting in @'42....

[Lee Enfield]

I thought the Enfield barrel comment was odd as well, but after speaking with him, I don't think he quite understood a lot of the information behind these "never scoped" Savages.

I had asked Lance about it and here's what he had to say:



In any event, I'll be picking up this rifle on Saturday.... ..... so if I get a chance I'll do some better pics and post them...

Regards,
Badger

congrats to Angel on her aquisition....