O.Geyger Mauser 98 Captured WW1 Battle of Marne by 3rd Cold Stream/Irish Guards RARE

[Calif-Steve]

I do agree with Patrick on most of this. Understand no private soldier carried that rifle. That leaves who/what? I would have to speculate an officer. Someone with money, for sure. I understand British officers carried swagger sticks into combat. I would guess most/all German officers carried/were issued Luger pistols. However, this rifle was clearly not Army-issue and I would again speculate only an office owned that rifle. Understand I am not claiming any officer used that rifle in combat, likely not at all. Boy, if they could only talk.

[malmartini]

Cheers for all the help Doug, much appreciated! Mal

[malmartini]

I just think it's a neat rifle. I would love to own something like that just for a sporter. It's timeless because it's a style that's still popular today. By the way, good luck with that deer.
Regards, Jim

Hi Jim, Yes I agree, it's a classic design, so nice I went out of my way to purchase another Mauser (Aug Wolf) of the same configuration with original optics & mounts for a hunting rifle, but still have'nt had time to use it as I have too many other guns to play with. If you'd like to see another timeless Mauser from my collection, please check my Boer War, Plezier Mauser in my Gallery, it's a very clean original specimen, one of the best.

[malmartini]

Unusual "Stutzer"









The rifle shown is a commercial hunting rifle of the type known as a "Stutzen". Similar rifes, on Mauser 98 systems, are quite common here in Mauserland.

In fact, here is a link to its brother

Forums.NitroExpress.com

"Stutzen" are carbine-sized hunting rifles with a full shaft, intended for use when stalking in the woods. The full shaft lets the hunter "beat around the bush" and rest the rifle on a brach or tree-trunk or whatever is lying around, without resting the rifle on the naked barrel. So effectively a brush rifle. I am at a loss to explain what it was doing anywhere near the front line in WWI.

Firstly, no ordinary soldier should have been carrying anything else but the rifle he was issued with. Especially in those very early days, before any "make do & mend" pressures had arisen.

Secondly, although offices provided their own arms, these were normally side-arms. Officers in those days were very concerned to give the impression that the dirty work of killing was something a gentlemen left to the troops. Hence the carrying of swords and handguns which were totally useless to attack enemies at rifle distances, but rather items with which to control one's own soldiers!


I can only surmise that the hypothetical officer took his Stutzer along to what was supposed to be "all over by Christmas", anticipating some pleasant hunting in the woods of a France that had been thoroughly defeated by the hammer of the Schlieffen Plan. As he found out, the hard way, and as we all know through hindsight, it didn't turn out that way at all...


Regardless of the story, that is certainly a most unusual rifle in that the divided front end woodwork allows it to be converted from a Stutzer to a short rifle.


Just one last point. For decades, German gunsmiths continued to make hunting rifles in the older chambering 8x57I, instead of the modified 8x57IS. They also made the barrels TIGHTER to match the 8x57I ammo, which was plentiful. So please check whether it has the S mark on the barrel or receiver ring, and if no such mark is visible, go cautiously. Use only 8.08mm / 0.318" bullets, and NOT the 8.20mm / 0.323" bullets of the S-chambering.


Patrick

Hi Patrick,
Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. It's a special rifle & if only it could talk. Yes the rifle is set up for brush hunting, the back sight is a single (sturdy) standing blade backsight marked for 100 meters from memory....no delicate fold up safari type sight.
I have checked the bore before I fired it & it was the early 318" bore. I've used Woodleigh 170grn? projectiles in it. I'll try & put up a few more pictures of it when I can get some time away from the wife & kids.....
Cheers; Mal

[malmartini]

In the peacetime Prussian Army, the main component of the Imperial German Army, there were one Imperial Guard Jäger battalion, the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon, and twelve line Jäger battalions. One Jäger battalion, the Großherzoglich Mecklenburgisches Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 14, was from the grand duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. Another, Westfälisches Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 7, known as the "Bückeburg Jägers", was raised in the principality of Schaumburg-Lippe (whose capital was Bückeburg). The other ten were from Prussian lands. In addition, another Prussian Guard unit, the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon, though not designated Jäger, was a Jäger formation. Its origins were in a French chasseur battalion of the Napoleonic era, and its troops wore the shako and green tunic of Jäger.

The army of the Kingdom of Saxony added two Jäger battalions, which were included in the Imperial German Army order of battle as Kgl. Sächsisches 1. Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 12 and Kgl. Sächsisches 2. Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 13. The Saxon Jäger had a number of dress distinctions - notably tunics of a darker green than the Prussian colour, black facings instead of red and a black buffalo-hair plume buckled to the side of the shako. The autonomous Royal Bavarian Army provided a further two Jäger battalions, Kgl. Bayerisches 1. Jäger-Bataillon and Kgl. Bayerisches 2. Jäger-Bataillon, who wore the light blue of Bavarian infantry with green facings.

On mobilization in August 1914, each of these Prussian, Saxon and Bavarian Jäger battalions raised a reserve Jäger battalion. In September 1914, an additional 12 reserve Jäger battalions were raised (10 Prussian and 2 Saxon). In May 1915, the German Army began joining the Jäger battalions to form Jäger regiments, and in late 1917, the Deutsche Jäger-Division was formed.

During the early stages of World War I the German Jäger maintained their traditional role as skirmishers and scouts, often in conjunction with cavalry units. With the advent of trench warfare they were committed to an ordinary infantry role, integrated into divisions and losing their status as independent units
Wikipedia quote.

These German units were Light Infantry and well trained and well led. I would guess the German officer who carried his hunting rifle into combat was either killed or seriously wounded as he would not have lost his rifle. I am surprised that an British unit took that rifle back home. I didn't think the British took Greman rifles home. Nice historical piece, to say the least. I would guess a German collector would pay real money for that rifle.

Hi Steve,
It's good to have that sort background with the rifle, VERY helpful! Thats the sort of information I may be able to refine. I really want to zero in on Axis operations on the 7th/8th & 9th of September. I need someone who can do a google search in German on or around those dates. Searches using the words Boitron...or the Marne etc... Knowing a little of how formal Germans are, I'm sure everything would have been documented,...if that documentation survived the war is another question. My wifes father was born in Germany, migrating as a child, post WW2, & still understands the language. I would love to ask him to try & search for me, but I don't think his computer literacy is up to scratch...besides he does have a tendancy to be a grumpy old bastard!!...(oh, but in never said that!)
Thank you,
Cheers; Mal

[malmartini]

I do agree with Patrick on most of this. Understand no private soldier carried that rifle. That leaves who/what? I would have to speculate an officer. Someone with money, for sure. I understand British officers carried swagger sticks into combat. I would guess most/all German officers carried/were issued Luger pistols. However, this rifle was clearly not Army-issue and I would again speculate only an office owned that rifle. Understand I am not claiming any officer used that rifle in combat, likely not at all. Boy, if they could only talk.

Hi Steve,
I can confirm there are no military markings whatsoever on the rifle & agree the owner would have been cashed up... or a thief! I would suggest that the rifle was such an unusual find on the battlefield it's no wonder the British kept it as a a War trophy. I can only assume it went to the UK after capture, then was bought to Australia by it's owner at some stage. We did have alot of UK veterans move to Australia post WW1 & 2 searching for a better life away from bitter memorys.....
Cheers; Mal

[Patrick Chadwick]

I have checked the bore before I fired it & it was the early 318" bore.

Very wise precaution - and as you have seen, it was necessary! And the Plezier Mauser falls into the "drooly" category. Keep looking - you are doing well!

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

I really want to zero in on Axis operations on the 7th/8th & 9th of September. I need someone who can do a google search in German on or around those dates.

You are getting muddled in your history. This is WWI, not WWII. You need to look for the activities of the Imperial German Army!
As calif-steve pointed out in his excellent post, there were several Jäger batallions, but only one Garde-Jäger Batallion - the one in the Prussian Army.

I suggest you follow this link, print it all out, and ask your father-in-law to translate the essence of it for you.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde-J%C3%A4ger-Bataillon

You can read that the famous MG 08 was trialled by the Garde-Jäger Batallion in the 1900s. This MG became the standard MG of the German army, and in fact was so widespread in the lighter version MG 08/15 that "08/15" became a German expression equivalent to "bog standard" in British English.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_08

In German, the "Gunner Asch..." series of books by Hans Hellmut Kirsch is the "08/15..." series. A possibly subliminal effect of the name Gunner Asch is that if you draw out the a of Asch, it reminds you of a coarse expression equivalent to "the poor bloody infantryman" - "der Schütze Arsch".
Who knows whether or not Kirst intended this? I suspect so.

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

... before all the uniforms turned to grey!

http://www.uniformfotos.de/218.html

Patriotically idealized:

http://www.bildpostkarten.uni-osnabr....php?pos=-8327

Patrick


---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

My last contribution on this topic...

... is to suggest that you a) learn some basic German and/or b) get your father-in-law up to speed on using the Internet, and pose any questions on the military operations of those days in the public forum on this site. I think that was enough from me!

http://www.milex.de/

And now I really must go and sort out the jungle, a.k.a. garden!

Patrick

[malmartini]

You are getting muddled in your history. This is WWI, not WWII. You need to look for the activities of the Imperial German Army!
As calif-steve pointed out in his excellent post, there were several Jäger batallions, but only one Garde-Jäger Batallion - the one in the Prussian Army.

I suggest you follow this link, print it all out, and ask your father-in-law to translate the essence of it for you.

Garde-Jäger-Bataillon – Wikipedia

You can read that the famous MG 08 was trialled by the Garde-Jäger Batallion in the 1900s. This MG became the standard MG of the German army, and in fact was so widespread in the lighter version MG 08/15 that "08/15" became a German expression equivalent to "bog standard" in British English.

MG 08 – Wikipedia

In German, the "Gunner Asch..." series of books by Hans Hellmut Kirsch is the "08/15..." series. A possibly subliminal effect of the name Gunner Asch is that if you draw out the a of Asch, it reminds you of a coarse expression equivalent to "the poor bloody infantryman" - "der Schütze Arsch".
Who knows whether or not Kirst intended this? I suspect so.

Patrick

My last contribution on this topic...

... is to suggest that you a) learn some basic German and/or b) get your father-in-law up to speed on using the Internet, and pose any questions on the military operations of those days in the public forum on this site. I think that was enough from me!

Lexikon des Ersten Weltkrieges

And now I really must go and sort out the jungle, a.k.a. garden!

Patrick


Hi Patrick.
Thankyou once again for all the help, you have an impressive knowledge of history & firearms!....Yes I was a bit muddled with my history last night after Mums 80th Birthday, too many Beers with familiy & friends. So it looks like I have alot of homework to do, plus the unpleasant task of training my farther inlaw in computer literacy (the blind, leading the blind, comes to mind!) I will have all the attached websites checked out at some stage by any means possible. Good luck with the garden.....