Did RSAF Enfield Lock provide crossguards for No.5 'Jungle Carbine' bayonets?

[nzl1a1collector]

Extract from SA&MG V152, Iss 1, Aug 70, Pg 3

L1A1 Bayonet
Introduced at the same time as the L1A2 bayonet these models have a crosspiece held firmly by two rivets against a shoulder on the haft, and the pommel is also riveted in position. The difference between the models, in addition to small dimensional differences, is the method of grinding the cutting edge is achieved by grinding equal angled flats on each sides of the blade.

L1A2 Bayonet
On the L1A2 the thickness is reduced in two stages, the larger flats having an included angle of 40º and the flat ground to be the edge having an included angle of 55º to 65º. The bayonet catch on both models protruded from the pommel approximately ¼ in. The protruding catch was liable to be operated accidentally causing disengagement of the bayonet.

The L1A3 is the recessed catch version of the L1A1 Bayonet

The L1A4 is the recessed catch version of the L1A2 Bayonet

[Peter Laidler]

Yep! Not aware of the inclined angles, but the A2 and A4 bayonets were the 'outside contractors' blades which allowed them to use their existing domestic machinery. Like you said earlier. Nothing to do with the shape of the crosspiece, length of the groove or whether the crosspiece/pommell was rivetted or tack welded in place.

I know that they all/mostly(?) seem to have DE/NATO marked and numbered grips but this was because for the formal manufacturing contracts, the grips, catches etc etc were issued to the outside contractor prior to manufacture as a what was/is called an 'embodiment loan'. This is where the parts were 'loaned' to the company in order to fullfill the contract (AND make it cheaper for the government of course.....) and on completion, the parts are in effect 'returned' as they are part of the finished article. Clever eh!

I was informed recently by a bloke researching the post war output and decline of the Sheffield blade and knife industry that the blade grinding machinery used by the domestic suppliers (the commercials, but this could be BSA and/or Hopkinson/Viners was supplied to them, secondhand, by the MoS from their stocks. Could this machinery be the stuff taken from Poole I ask? There some more useless bits of Enfield knowledge

[nzl1a1collector]

I was aware of the inclined angles as I had read the details years ago but then promptly forgot as I do.

I have found 3 types of British blade grinding and in fact if there were no markings on the blade or the rest of the bayonet I could ID it from the method the blade has been ground.

Enfield: Ground from the bottom of the fuller to the edge of the blade.

Fazakerley: Ground from the fuller to the edge of the blade, and has an extra grinding pass at the front edge of the tip on the lower side.

BSA: Ground from the top of the blade to the bottom of the blade in one process.

[LesterH]

If all of these bayonets were made the same.Most of us would not be enjoying collecting bayonets!

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

If all of these bayonets were made the same.Most of us would not be enjoying collecting bayonets!

It seems in the case of the No5 Mk I it might be cheaper to collect the rifles than the bayonets.

[tankhunter]

On the L1A4 variants. Ther are ALSO TWO lengths of fuller in the blade. See I.S.P.Ls for drawings of these.

The reason the L1A4 was introduced is because the Crossguards on L1A3's were a weaker design (Hex) & it was a frequent point of failure for the muzzle ring to fracture at the thinnest point of the Hex.

hence the introduction of the A4 variant where the crossguard was a gradual taper, & much stronger.

---------- Post added at 05:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 AM ----------

[QUOTE=Peter Laidler;207678]What do you mean by not being able to see through the grip rivets? Do you mean that they are solid rivets or that the rivet fills the hole or recess in the steel grip?

Peter, at some units, we used to 'Cheat' when fitting new grips to L1A3/4s. We never had the jig & special forming punch for forming the grip rivets. Soooo....to that end, we used Pop Rivets & as you know, that leaves a bit of the shank in some of the heads when they have been squeezed by the tool in fitting.

That is POSSIBLY why on SOME of these you may encounter. you MIGHT not be able to see through the twin rivet holes in the grips!

[LesterH]

It seems in the case of the No5 Mk I it might be cheaper to collect the rifles than the bayonets.

Interestingly, I purchased my "mint" Poole Ordenence factory No5 from Chris Goodwin at Bisley. Who was trying to sell a matching No5 rifle and bayonet for £600 to a customer. This unenlightened customer said the rifle was too expensive and purchased the rifle without the bayonet for a slightly lower price. Purely by chance I was walking past the stall when this happened. So I bid Chris £90 and ran off up the hall with the No5 bayonet before any one could change their minds! Prior to this I had paid £125 for a fair/good condition Viners No5 that I found in a gun dealers spares box at the rear of a stall. You have to be quick if you see a nice one for a fair price.

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Interestingly, I purchased my "mint" Poole Ordenence factory No5 from Chris Goodwin at Bisley. Who was trying to sell a matching No5 rifle and bayonet for £600 to a customer. This unenlightened customer said the rifle was too expensive and purchased the rifle without the bayonet for a slightly lower price. Purely by chance I was walking past the stall when this happened. So I bid Chris £90 and ran off up the hall with the No5 bayonet before any one could change their minds! Prior to this I had paid £125 for a fair/good condition Viners No5 that I found in a gun dealers spares box at the rear of a stall. You have to be quick if you see a nice one for a fair price.

I will keep trying but I seem to have used up my good luck on the rifle.

[LesterH]

Keep asking about and you will find a nice N05 bayonet. dotDefender Blocked Your Request have a nice one for circa £150. Looked at it this morning. The best and cheapest source of fine bayonets is to speak to your local building firms. It's surprising what they throw away when working on houses. That's how I got my No7 bayonet!

[peregrinvs]

There's some Sterling No.5's here:

http://www.project-x.org.uk/bayonets.html

If you're blessed with lots of money...