Info needed on a German Luger

[Johnny Peppers]

After seeing the other pictures I tend to believe the pistol was rebuilt in a shop outside DWM following WWI, and sold commercially. It appears that the pistol may have been scrubbed of all markings other than the DWM logo, and renumbered. The pistol has no proof or acceptance marks that I can see, and since the barrel has no serial number, it could have been changed after the pistol was sold commercially.

[Hoss]

That doesn't make it illegal does it? What you're saying sounds a little like an altered serial number.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I think that Johhny Peppers has basically got it. I am not a Luger expert, so I cannot participate in esoteric discussions of marking fashions. But I have handled, refurbished and fired what must by now be a 3-figure number of German weapons, and within the limits of that experience the sheer lack of markings is a sure sign that it has been messed around with. As is overstamping of a number in the same place - this usually indicates forced matching. Officially renumbered parts were lined out and the new number applied separately, not overstamped. But as they say, never say never...

And yes, fitting a barrel to a system without a number being stamped on it was and still is illegal. In Germany, the chambered barrel is regarded as the prime active component, so no number = highly suspect.

As to the bore diameter, surely it is quite simple to stick a 9mm bullet in the muzzle, twiddle it around, and measure the diameter of the bright line that the muzzle will rub on the nose of the bullet?

Apart from the various 9mm chamberings, readers should be aware that Lugers have been made in Germany for 9mm gas cartridges. These have a slightly reduced case diameter compered with 9mm Luger - for safety reasons, so that a live 9mm round cannot be chambered. Maybe someone has been creative here, with a gas pistol and recycled genuine Luger components?

Patrick

[Johnny Peppers]

That doesn't make it illegal does it? What you're saying sounds a little like an altered serial number.

It would not be illegal in the U.S. Bear in mind that it is speculation on my part about the markings, but I see no other reason it doesn't have a proof mark. Normally the receiver, barrel, and breech block show a proof mark. Also, altering a firearm's serial number was made illegal in the U.S. by the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, and your pistol would have preceded this date. I have never seen that exact font used to serial number a DWM Luger, and while most gun shops would have a set of number stamps, it should be rare to have a set of letter stamps in lower case script. The numbering of the front toggle also looks really bad with repeated strikes.

[Hoss]

As to the bore diameter, surely it is quite simple to stick a 9mm bullet in the muzzle, twiddle it around, and measure the diameter of the bright line that the muzzle will rub on the nose of the bullet?

I'm probably going to sound like a noob here, but sounding like a noob is a lot better than making a mistake and firing the wrong ammo.

Is it really that simple? How accurate does the measurement have to be? Unless I had calipers or a micrometer, I don't think I could get a very accurate reading this way, and if I had calipers, I wouldn't need to mess around with sticking a bullet into the muzzle. There are a lot of cartridges that are just a tiny bit off on the diameter but are completely different rounds. Heck there are plenty that actually have the same diameter and are still completely different rounds. I always figured the bores widened a little with use too. Maybe this will work because lugers were only made in a few specific calibers? So if it comes out somewhere close to 7.62mm i can be fairly certain I've got a 30 luger? What are the other possibilities? Do you measure a bore from groove to groove, or land to land?

[villiers]

After WWI, during the depression, a large number of DWM Lugers and parts were "appropriated" by workers at the factory. Parts were also looted from the bombed out factory in Berlin after WWII. This resulted in a large number of unmarked guns that were later attributed to illegal Luger production in Germany in avoidance of Allied control during the inter-war period.

[browningautorifle]

Simple really if you have access to some different cartridges. 9mm won't chamber. The bullet won't fit in the muzzle. 30 Luger will both. 30 Mauser will fit at the muzzle but not the chamber. There are only so many it can possibly be.

[Hoss]

Lotsa good info, I find myself thanking almost everyone. I have acquired a half a box of 30 luger rounds that belonged to the same guy. (mother in law didn't think the box with the ammo and loose parts was important?) I think I'm going to the range this weekend to try them out.

[Patrick Chadwick]

How accurate does the measurement have to be? Unless I had calipers or a micrometer, I don't think I could get a very accurate reading this way, and if I had calipers, I wouldn't need to mess around with sticking a bullet into the muzzle.

True!

But measuring by inserting caliper jaws into a muzzle is very tricky, since
a) the curvature of the wall tends to produce a smaller reading, because the caliper jaws have a finite thickness, and
b) if the bore has an even number of grooves, you may measure groove or bore diameter, so you have to make more than one measurement at different positions, to see which is which, and
c) if the bore has an uneven number of grooves, you don't know where you are. So you can actually make a pretty good measurement of the diameter at the muzzle with the "twiddled bullet" method.
More importantly, if the muzzle is badly worn and has become bell-mouthed, then
d) calipers produce a falsely optimistic result, because of the jaws contacting further down the muzzle, where the wear is not so great.

Anyway, whichever method you use, it is accurate enough to let you identify the nominal bore size!

There are a lot of cartridges that are just a tiny bit off on the diameter but are completely different rounds. Heck there are plenty that actually have the same diameter and are still completely different rounds. I always figured the bores widened a little with use too. Maybe this will work because lugers were only made in a few specific calibers?

Exactly! - It's good enough for that! And, btw, bores are usually measured land-to-land, but the caliber designations are often inconsistent - e.g. .303 British has the bore(land) diameter, whereas .308 Win has the groove diameter. Metric calibers are usually (if I write "always", someone is bound to find an exception!) bore x case length - e.g 7.62x51 (7.62mm = .300")

Patrick

[JBS]

You have what is commonly called a parts gun. There are thousands of them in the states. Check out the attached link and you may be able to source the frame and some of the parts. Johnny is correct it has been scrubbed some time way back. After removing the slide assembly look down in the frame behind the main spring for more numbers and proofs that will help sort things out. Note that even parts gun Lugers can be tack drivers and a blast to shoot.

Remove side and bolt/toggle. Oil chamber and fist inch of barrel. Put tight bore patch in barrel one half inch in front of chamber. Stand barrel on muzzle. Pour melted candle wax in chamber. Let cool and tap it out with cleaning rod. It will have shrank some but will be close enough for you to tell if it is 9mm or 30 Luger and will not cost you anything.

http://www.worldoflugers.com/index.htm