Fair price for a Type 38 school rifle?

[Aragorn243]

Local gun shop has a Type 38 school rifle. Having just gotten a type 99 I'm considering this but lots of questions.

It has the full mom intact. Mum lightly struck off center with the "kokura" style mark, may have been struck twice, neither is a conclusive mark. The "school" emblem is struck on the barrel, not between the mum and the type 38 marking. Receiver is struck with the double zero's in front of the serial number. It is a Kokura arsenal rifle, no serial numbers I can find match. Bolt works as smoothly as it can covered in cosmoline. Bore also pretty full of cosmoline. Rifling looks good at the crown. Barrel exterior from the end to the bayonet lug looks to be chromed, not sure that it is, just looks like it. Metal is probably 80%, has some light rust, no pitting that I can see. Magazine base is a bit rougher. Safety works, firing pin spring sounds and feels weak but could be gummed up with cosmoline. Stock looks to have been sanded, not here but in Japan before being brought back. So it does not have a great finish on it. It has a 3/4 inch high number 5 stamped or engraved in the butt, one large 1/2 inch gouge in the butt and a crack which does not go through and runs parallel to the split stock on the butt. On the neck it has a brass plate with Japanese characters. Plate is half an inch wide and maybe 2 inches long. Missing the cleaning rod and dust cover. No other accessories present, not sure if they would be on this model. He's asking $200 but will maybe knock off $25.

Price is affordable but I don't know if it is fair for this type rifle. It is a bit of a project gun but that's the kind I like. Metal needs cleaned up and unstuck. Stock isn't pretty but isn't a disaster either. My concern is that it is a school rifle. I read these were generally older and possibly worn out and as I prefer working models rather than collector models, not sure this is a good fit for me. I don't really like not being able to see the bore either, he is supposed to be having a guy clean that out.

Another fellow who looked at it before me said it is not a training rifle which I also believe and that it was rather unique. As he's a collector and didn't take it with him, not sure what he meant by that. Not sure if he and the owners are lumping school rifle and training rifle together or not but the owner seems to think it is not either but the 00's seem pretty conclusive on that even if the other markings are not clear or where they normally are.

I'm thinking that as a Type 38 with the mum intact, it would be a fair price. With it being a school rifle, not so much. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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[Midmichigun]

Aragorn,
Sorry for not posting sooner... I didn't see this.
School rifles seem to fall into all sorts of category... from non shooting... to full shooters.... and ex military. I have one "school" rifle. It has a smooth bore, and apparently isn't made to fire (BTW the bolt is missing). Mine is unique enough that any ole bolt won't fit in... and I am told that many are like this.
I would love to see a pic before I told ya to buy it.... but I understand its still at the shop.
School rifles are a genre aside from the "military" rifles.
As to dollar value, that is a tough call. I payed $50.00 without the bolt.... overall condition was good.
Generally, it seems that Japanese rifles have gone up in value over the years... I suspect that a rare or unique one will keep a steady value.
That being said, $200.00 goes a long way towards getting something that YOU want. If you suspect that you have no interest, especially if it becomes a wall hanger... then I would hold off.
The best option I can give you, is to look at Gunbroker, and see what things sell for (not listed BTW... just what they sell for).
When I requested info... I got ZERO comments... however, here is a link to my rifle, so you know what my school rifle looked like:
Japanese Trainer Rifle- Photos and Info request

[Aragorn243]

Thanks for the reply. I've been thinking about it the past couple of days. There's a gun show locally this weekend that I may go to and possibly find something to cool off my interest a bit.

This one is the real deal, it's ex-military. I thought about stopping in to see if he cleaned the bore out yet but figured I might come home with it if he did. I've been watching them at auction and the intact mum tends to be the biggest deal with them these days but the school marking in a way cancels that out. I suspect the metal would clean up as well as the Type 99 I purchased two Saturdays ago, pictures posted on the "auction" thread. The stock had the original finish sanded off from all appearances.

I just don't know a lot about these, have been trying to learn but the whole school rifle deal has thrown me way off. The brass tag is interesting but would it make a decent shooter? Never can tell until you actually shoot it I suppose. The type 38's don't seem to turn up as often as the 99's in my area. For that matter, out of about 20 I've seen go through the auction, only one was a 38.

I love project rifles and anything under $200 is "affordable" to me, but by the same token, I don't want to pay $175 for a $90 rifle and the Japanese rifles seem to be priced all over the place. I see guys coming home with near pristine examples for $300 but I've not been lucky enough to find one of those.

If I don't find anything at this weekends show, I may got back and get the serial number and series off of it at least to check that out and see if the bore looks good.

[Midmichigun]

Aragorn,
I can't believe that Japanese rifles go for more that $150 in any shape! LOL! I was spoiled by no one collecting them. I just wish that I had the $$ back then to pick them up!
I tried to get 1 each, of each Japanese rifle type. That includes school rifles. Hence my interest in them. I don't mind "wall hangers", but like you, prefer shooters.
I know that the "Mum" is a big factor for many people. I have heard some experts say that 20% of the value of a rifle is if the Mum is intact, and that most people should aim to get them with Mum's, onless the variety is rare. That being said, if you are looking for a plain jane shooter, perhaps the ground Mum would be ok for you. It is a legit part of their historic heritage, and could make them more affordable for you.... and to leave the "safe queen/ intact Mum" for other collectors.
So far I have been lucky with my collecting. I have only 1 rifle that was defaced, but the Mum is still there. It looks to have a bayonet "strike" across the surface.
But as you know, they aren't making any more of them... so I expect them to appreciate in value, especially with an intact Mum....
Good luck and keep us posted!

[Aragorn243]

I checked in on the rifle again this morning, it's still there. They did not clean out the bore, it's packed with cosmoline. I examined it more closely, took a measurement and discovered the stock has been cut approximately 2 inches. Bayonet lug was moved back as well as the locking strip for the lug. The end of the barrel does appear to be chromed. I'm still thinking about it but with the cut stock, less so. Perhaps that is the reason it was relegated to a school.

[Aragorn243]

I made another trip to the shop and did learn some things this time.

The barrel has been cut to 25 inches. The stock has been cut so that the bayonet lug is now 4.25 inches from the front sight instead of the 3 inches it should be. The end of the barrel is chromed, it has also been lathed so the sight could be installed. The rifling doesn't look like typical rifling, more along the lines of the barrel being rifled. No lands and grooves, just shaped. There is no series mark on it so I'm guessing it is a Koishikawa (Tokyo) rifle. It does have the school mark but it is on the barrel, not the receiver.

Going out on a limb here but I am guessing that the reason it was turned over for school use is that the barrel end was damaged. It was cut down along with the stock by an arsenal. Anyone ever hear of this being done before? I don't think it was bubba'd due to the condition of the cosmoline etc. Doesn't really make much sense that they would send a rifle to a school that the bayonet lug would be unusable. Could be that "school" symbol which is in the wrong place has some other meaning. It is not an exact match to what I've seen.