Savage No. 4 Mk1*T (????)

[Ridolpho]

I'd appreciate some feedback on this rifle I recently purchased. On the surface it appears to be a Savage sniper conversion (sans scope and bracket). Bolt/ body serial numbers match and I assume lack of number on barrel is a US thing? Pretty much every marked part has a "flaming bomb" including the barrel which is a two groove variety in good condition. The body appears to be parkerized a light grey and is in good condition. As to the important markings, it has "TR" on the left socket, "T" on the left body, an "S" on the cutoff boss on the right, "TR" on the bottom of the forend. The Enfield testers mark (as mentioned in Mr. Laidlers excellent book) may be present on the right side of the bolt channel but appears to have been bashed at some point. There are remnant marks consistent with the original. There is no "S51" mark on the buttstock. Various other markings that mean nothing to me include an "F" benath the butt adjoining the socket and an "H" under the forend. The scope mounting pads are in rough shape and may not be original. The screws on the rear pad, in particular, don't look like something that would come from H&H or an armourer. There is a wood insert in the bedding area under the barrel reinforce. The sling swivel at the front of the triggerguard is aftermarket. I didn't pay overly much for this and my plans are to mount (for now) a vintage Weaver K3 on an aftermarket bracket which I've already purchased. I'd appreciate comments about the possibility that this is a real "T" as well as ideas about the alignment of a scope given that I'd rather not take the existing pads off. Thanks, in advance.

Ridolpho

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Badger]

Check the MKL and read this article by Advisory Panel member Lance:

1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)

Regards,
Doug

[Peter Laidler]

The rifle is real, but a No4T it most definately ain't real........... I'll let some of the others come in and explain all of the gory details

[Badger]

Well, I'm no expert, just a K98k collector, but looking at this one compared to my wife's 1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope) shown in the MKL with the accompanying article by Advisory Panel member Lance, I see the following..

1. Serial number is out of the accepted 11C to 15C range and has the later cocking handle as one would expect for a serial number 23C5499

2. The were often re-barrelled with UK made 5 groove barrels, as shown in MKL, so question, is this an Enfield made 5 groove barrel? If so, it should be marked with Enfield proofs on the barrel as shown in MKL example.

3. Sling swivel is a civilian aftermarket add-on, not military.

4. T on receiver side and also a TR on underside of wood, as well as butt tang under serial number? I've never seen this on a Savage and it's not on the MKL example.

5. There's an S stamped on the right side of receiver which isn't there in original No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifles, as shown in photo montage in MKL.

6. Cheek rest is way too far forward as compared to example in MKL, or for that matter, any No.4 Mk1*(T) sniper rifle I've viewed.

7. There's no rear sight at all? Should be a [S]avage marked sight if it was there.

8. There's no rifle serial number stamped in the front wood on the underside.

Anyway, I'm just a rookie on these, but with just a quick five minute comparison to the MKL example, that's what I see, or more particularly, what I don't see.

How'd I do Peter?

Regards,
Doug

[bigduke6]

Have to admit I dont know my arse from my elbow when it comes to these, I,ve read Peters books, and looked at many pics, only ever held a real one once and also a real L42, but the thing that stands out like a sore thumb (more of an engineering point) to me is the rear pad, the screws and the stake etc, also the pads set back maybe a bit more than what Peter states in his book, the T (stamped twice) and the cheek rest.

[Ridolpho]

Thank's for the replies so far. Badger- I have been through all the references I could find on the site and was hopeful based on comments about observed 2 groove T's, etc. I should note the rear sight is currently off the rifle but is not correct for a "T". One thing I find a bit strange is the thought that H&H wouldn't stamp a "T" on the body on Savage conversions (as on the example rifle on the forum). Also, with regard to the "TR" found on British manufactured rifles selected for conversion- do we know for certain Savages selected were not similarly marked and, if so, was it because they were not selected in a similar manner? The S51 being absent on the butt doesn't seem conclusive to me as butts get changed and, from the references, it seems the S51 may not be present prior to a certain point in time. Another thought- the S51 is well known and would, to me, be the easiest mark to fake (about the only thing I would be capable of doing!).

[tbonesmith]

My attitude would be to either way, scope it up and get it shooting, and enjoy it for what it is. Maybe a fake, but not a bad clone none the less. All the better if it shoots well.

[Norton1]

What tbone said +1

[Ridolpho]

I appreciate the comments. I'm looking at this rifle as a bit of a forced education in #4 sniper rifles. When I purchased it I was far from home and with only a couple of references to look at. The older collector (sniper rifles his speciality) I bought it from swore it to be genuine but - he also dropped his price fairly readily. I'm left with a few rather academic questions: 1) why did H&H not "T" stamp their Savage conversions? 2) are no known Savage 4*T's "TR" stamped and, if not, were they even selected for accuracy? I'll finish this off with a couple of photos of what appears to be a possible attempt at a stamp that appears to have glanced off the surface (note striations) but still left a few faint impressions. This mark is at the rear end of the body on the right side of the bolt channel almost precisely where a small mark appears on Badger's wife's rifle best seen on photo #48 (Knowledge Library; 1942 No. 4 Mk1*(T) Savage less scope. For those in the know, is this the Enfield inspectors mark? These shots are taken with a microscope and side lighting. The height of the smeared (mark?) is about 3mm.
Again, thanks for the comments- I've only been into the Lee Enfields for about a year and it's a huge help to be able to tap into the knowledge base that exists on this forum.

[Alan de Enfield]

I think those litle 'figure 8' type marks could be the US proof marks - the 'flaming bomb'