Spanish FR-8

[Aragorn243]

I just picked up an FR-8 at a yard sale and have a couple of questions.

The rifle is in excellent shape, looks brand new from the arsenal except for a couple of dings in the stock. Metal finish has no marks at all.

It's a 1952 La Coruna. This is a 7.62 marked rifle and various sources state this is 7.62 NATO. Is that correct. I've seen some references to 7.62 Centime. I've also seen from some individuals that it is safe to fire 308's in these. Knowing that the 308 is hotter than the 7.62 NATO, I have concerns about this.

Lastly, it is missing the front sling eyebolt. It appears to have sheared off or never been installed as the pin end is both flat and blued. I did some looking around and Numrich has them in their listings but are currently sold out. So I need another source for one. German HK eyebolts popped up in the search and they look the same but would they really fit? What about an eyebolt for the Cetme?

I did not notice it was missing at time of purchase. Price was right either way.

Just looked it up in Ball's Mauser Military Rifles of the World. Wish I could remember that book sitting right in front of me on the shelf 12 inches from my computer monitor. In any case, only about a paragraph on this one and it says it is chambered for 308 Winchester but that simply does not seem correct. All other sources say 7.62 NATO.

Information

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[vintage hunter]

Others may not agree with this but as I understand it the FR-8 is safe for use with 7.62x51/.308 ammo, these are built up on large ring M98 actions once barreled for 8x57. It's the small ring FR-7 that was meant to fire the 7.62 CETME round only, a reduced power version of the 7.62x51 used in the early CETME rifles. The 7.62x51, 7.62 CETME and .308 Winchester cases are all identical dimentionally but pressure levels differ. The use of 7.62x51/.308 ammo in Spanish FR-7 and FR-8 rifles is a contraversial subject( and to a somewhat lesser degree 7.62x51 vs .308 chamber pressures) but theres lots of information available on the internet to help you decide for yourself. FWIW, Grafs has/had some reasonably priced 7.62 CETME ammo last time I looked. I've owned several FR-8's over the years and shot a mix of commercial .308 and surplus 7.62x51 through them with no problems.

[Patrick Chadwick]

It's a 1952 La Coruna.

The CETME was a Spanish assault rifle design, that later emerged as the German G3 rifle. The Spanish, being militarily somewhat isolated in the Franco era and not a member of NATO, designed a special cartridge that was almost, but not quite the same as, the NATO cartridge. CETME rifles versions A and B are only supposed to be used with the CETME cartridge. Version C was finally able to handle the NATO spec cartridge.

Your rifle is not a CETME assault rifle, whether A, B, or C, so this is irrelevant. It was built in 1952, before the 7.62x51 NATO was introduced. So it has presumably been rebarelled. And rebarelled rifles are supposed to have been fitted with barrels suitable for normal 7.62x51 NATO.

Please check it out- I may have got my wires crossed - but you will have to puzzle out some Spanish, as anything you will find in English language forums is likely to be highly derivative.

And it appears that the whole worry of .308 WIN versus 7.62x51 NATO comes down to different methods of specifying/measuring the maximum chamber pressure. If you can find a milspec for 7.62x51 NATO, compare it with a CIP or SAAMI data sheet in this regard. A huge red herring that causes unnecessary worry.


Patrick

[Aragorn243]

My research this afternoon has shown that the CETME round was only intended for an early version of the CETME rifle due to heavy recoil and control issues on automatic fire.

The NATO round was designed on the weakest rifle/action in the NATO alliance and that would be the Spanish Mausers which were still in use and converted to the NATO round so even the FR-7's "should" safely be able to handle it although it is right at the edge.

Nearly all sources say the 308 round should never be fired in an FR-7, some also say the NATO round should not be used in them unless it is a reduced loading which is supposed to be available.

Other sources say that the Spanish NATO loads are heavier than the German NATO rounds and so standard NATO rounds should be fine with no issues.

It's all pretty confusing

Most do seem to agree that there should be no issues firing 308 rounds through an FR-8. As the NATO rounds are cheaper that the 308 rounds, I'll probably not use the 308's in any case.

This rifle is out of my usual area of collecting so I went into the deal without much research or knowledge. I had an idea of what they were going for and based on that what I was willing to pay with that in mind. Seller's bottom line price was one I couldn't pass up, $200.

Patrick,

From what I can gather, the barrels are new, not rechambered 8mm barrels and they are supposed to be NATO standard.

Your point on the sammi vs mil spec was mentioned on one site but your explanation is a whole lot clearer.

[Patrick Chadwick]

One thing I can say: I have never heard this problem mentioned in Germany. Maybe because our rifles have been proofed before being offered on the civilian market, and we trust that the proof houses know the difference between maximum and average, copper-crushing and piezo measurements etc. We just happily stuff commerical .308 WIN ammo and NATO ammo into our proofed rifles and do not appear to have any problems. And most milsurp shooters will avoid loading their rifles to the maximum pressure anyway.

[jmoore]

The main drama I have with the civilian versus military cartridge is in bolt rifles chambered specifically for .308W. 7.62 shoulders are typically longer and may be almost impossible to chamber. It's particularly noticable when chambering a rifle. Federal match ammo will drop in and the bolt will close LONG before military rounds will even begin to fit. On the other hand Prvi Partisan ammo, including "match" is all 7.62x51 dimension. Bit of a bother if you don't know what's going on. (Which happened recently to a friend of mine.)

The upshot is that your FR8 ought to shoot either round OK, but the .308 ammo (except Prvi) will have the brass "worked" more or show some sign of "excess" headspace.

[Aragorn243]

Patirck,

One word: Lawsuits

I think that creates a realm of uncertainty, speculation, distrust, whatever.

When someone can win millions of dollars because you "didn't know" coffee was served hot at McDonalds and you burned yourself when you spilled it on yourself, it opens up all sorts of concerns.

Do they proof test every single rifle or sample batches from each production run?

jmoore,

Privi I like so should not be an issue. This is the first rifle I have in this caliber that I plan to shoot so what I'll be shooting, I'll have to buy, I have nothing on hand for it. I think it is the last of the major military calibers I didn't have. It's modern and I don't do modern much.

[vintage hunter]

Supposedly the importer, Samco IIRC, sent ONE example of the FR-7 to White laboratories for proof testing and it took 90,000 psi to make it come apart. However, IMO testing just one prooves nothing as theres quite a few pics on the net showing ruptured FR-7's and Civil Guard rifles fired with 7.62 NATO/.308 Win ammo. Back when I was in high school in the mid 80's I used to hang out every chance I got at the shop of an old gunsmith in the neighborhood that built custom rifles, some on German and Spanish made model 93 and 95 small ring Mauser actions. He attempted chambering some of the small ringers for catridges like .243 Win., 6mm Rem., .257 Roberts+P but had problems with the headspace increasing as the round count went up. The German actions held up better but in some cases the Spaniards showed excessive headspace at less than 100 rounds. He finally threw in the towel altogether when one chambered in 6mm Remington blew up during remote test firing.

[Aragorn243]

I found some eyebolts at an HK site. They are supposed to be interchangeable with the CETME eyebolts according to their website and I believe the CETME eyebolts are interchangeable with the FR-8 eyebolts. I sent them an e-mail to ask if this is correct.

[arado]

308 Winchester uses cheap thin brass cases. 7.62 x51 NATO has heavy wall cases to accommodate generous military chambers. I shoot commercial us ammo as last choice in any caliber.. gary