Savage No4 MkI* - Chinese Lend Lease

[tlvaughn]

Over the past few years, I have come across a couple of the Savage Chinese Lend Lease rifles with the Chinese markings on the receiver, but they always seem to be missing the original butt stock with the markings. Considering they shipped approx. 40,000 of these to China, I find it strange that it is easier to find a more rare rifle (SMLE MkV, No1 MkVI, L42A1, and Enforcer) than one of these.

I actually came across one yesterday at an on-line auction and was bidding against an onsite bidder. One of the problems with on-line auctions is that there is a slight delay in the feed, so if you are not paying attention, you can miss out, which is what happened to me. I was distracted by one of the kids for a second and next thing I know, the hammer was dropped and I missed out on this rifle.

Congrats to the on-site bidder, I hope he is a member of this forum and will be posting pics soon.

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

A lot of these Lend'Lease/China rifles appeared in S-Vietnam as was, presumably came down the HCM trail. I never noticed the markings on the butts of those I saw but they were in dire condition. I often wondered where they got the ammo or even why they bothered as every VC seemed to have an RPD judging from the amount captured. I sent some back to Singleton and England (and the big Intelligence cell in Central Malaya via diplomatic/military routes but they were treated as just bog standard No4's - of which there were plenty

[tlvaughn]

Here are a couple of pictures of the markings on Chinese Lend Lease rifles:

[PA_RIFLEMAN303]

oh great now I want one. thanks

[lngstrt]

Can we assume that most are still over there? Do the Chinese or (ex) North Vietnamese have a re-arsenal program? Are they all warehoused waiting for the proper political climate in the US so they can send them here for $$$? Or are they simply 'destroyed' in service from '40's through 'Nam etc.? In the great scheme of things, 40,000 rifles ain't many.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Neither the Chinese nor Viets are noted for their careful storage of "surplus" military hardware, be it small arms or aircraft..

One Australian dealer was getting a lot of stuff out of China a while back; Arisakas were big, and there were a few interesting Mausers, including a couple of the REALLY rare 6.8mm calibre ones. I also noticed that the condition of most of it was appalling. Climate-controlled armouries are unknown in many parts of the world, it seems.

Last I heard, the Viets were cheerfully salvaging the remains of Garands, Springfields, Arisakas, MAS-36s, etc for the steel content. There would have been a few tons of high-grade steel in M1 and M-14 receivers alone. Their limited attempts at "export" (Captured M-16s sent to a couple of dodgy African states) seem to have been curtailed by pressure applied as part of the process of "normalisation" of diplomatic relationships with a certain country, so they just gave up.

As for the Chinese, their clients in Africa etc. are sufficiently "fashion conscious" to demand AKMs and PKMs instead of "collector grade" Mausers or Brens.

[Capt.Mainwaring]

Here are a couple of pictures of the markings on Chinese Lend Lease rifles:

This was taken to Taiwan by the Nationalists in 1949. The e-pencil is literally 'national army' and is an abbreviation for 'Republic of China Armed Forces' and this mark can be found on WWII era weapons from Taiwan. I would suspect that most Chinese No.4s, if not all are surplus from Taiwan in the early 1980s. The Communists did not use the No4 and I haven't seen any evidence of this in pictures or in Chinese marked rifles.

[Mk VII]

One Australian dealer was getting a lot of stuff out of China a while back; Arisakas were big, and there were a few interesting Mausers, including a couple of the REALLY rare 6.8mm calibre ones. I also noticed that the condition of most of it was appalling. Climate-controlled armouries are unknown in many parts of the world, it seems.

I've hear similar about a bunch of stuff that turned up over here - broomhandle Mausers that were literally battlefield pick-ups and stuck away covered in mud and rust. There wasn't one of those guns that was usable or even good for parts.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Whilst the chaps on the "winning side" didn't chuck much away, they had storage problems. I saw a bunch of once-lovely stuff, mostly ex-U.S. but more than a few Arisakas and Mausers, from a large depot that had been flooded when the Red River broke its banks in the nineties.

Totally stuffed. The depot was apparently underwater for over a week and then the Viets simply couldn't clean off the mud and lubricate the gear fast enough to stop it deteriorating. Good source of high-grade scrap steel, though.

The story with "war-booty" firearms and aircraft in the south was equally sad, due to the soggy, tropical conditions.

Interesting to look at photos and movies of the Vietnamese campaign to oust the Khmer Rouge. When they went in, mainly from the southern region, the bulk of the hardware, from small arms to comms gear was of U.S. origin. By the time they left, some years later, almost all of that had been expended in the general direction of the KR. One thing of interest was that the ubiquitous M-113 APCs were run until their original petrol engines and .30 / .50 cal MGs were worn out and ammo expended and then they were refitted with Russian diesel engines and Soviet pattern machine-guns and radio gear. Waste not, want not.

[Capt.Mainwaring]

Neither the Chinese nor Viets are noted for their careful storage of "surplus" military hardware, be it small arms or aircraft...

The Chinese didn't store things, they just continued to use them! Almost everything pre-Communist soldiered on with the People's Militia for decades in good, indifferent or poor states of care. I have a 1975 People' Militia training manual which lists Type 53 Mosin, Chiang Kai-shek Mausers, Arisakas, 1903 Springfield as standard issue 'old rifles', well into the Type 56 SKS era of the Militia.

Used and abused for decades, they were ultimately rounded up in the early 1980s, bundled into pallets and sold off en mass. I have a Type 53 here in very good condition, but I cleaned a bucket load of dirt and grit out of the stock. I recently picked up a Chinese made sling marked for the 1903 Springfield, dated 1957 for the People's Militia.

On the other hand, a lot of the same rifles came out of Taiwan around the same time in excellent condition. I have a CKS Mauser that has a new barrel dated 1976 and is entirely re-blued and re-arsenaled. Most of the Mausers I have seen here in Aus are re-arsenaled and out of Taiwanese stores. These No.4 from Taiwan probably tell the same story.