US Surcharged Ross 1905 MkII***

[nmckenzie]

Anbody have any idea how many of the 20,000 rifles Uncle Sam acquired in 1917 escaped being sporterized or otherwise altered post-war, and how many might still survive in reasonably original condition?

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[Frederick303]

All I can say is that in eastern PA they are the most common type of Ross rifle one see. At least 1/2 of the rifles I have seen for sale over the past ten years have been sporterized. I expect that there are more around this area as they were used by the State forces of New York in the 1917 to 1919 time period

[nmckenzie]

Not surprising to hear they're relatively common in eastern PA. Still, in my 30+ years as a NY gunsmith I'd seen only one, a badly sporterized MkIII. Retired back in '93, moved to Alaska, and quite recently within the space of a month acquired two, a sporterized MkII - 22" barrel etc., and a US surcharge MkII*** of 1909 manufacture in unaltered condition. The latter came with a bayonet and scabbard, both US stamped. Initially issued to the Winnipeg Cadet Corps, it was subsequently reissued to the 100th Winnipeg Grenadiers, and from there passed into US inventory. Carved rather than stamped into the right side of the stock just below the comb are 3/8" or so characters reading Co E, which I'm sure translates to Company E. Be interesting to know whether the Co E refers to the Grenadiers (their Co E was based in Roland), or a US outfit. Bore is in really nice shape, and I've found no markings indicating an enlarged chamber.

[buffdog]

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If it is stamped "Co. E" then it is about 99% that it is a U.S. marking. Canadian markings usually had the Regimenta./Unit/Battalion number or letters stamped on the right side of the butt stock with a line underneath it, then a rack number of the rifle. The rack number is not a serial number of the rifle, but rather the number of that particular rifle on inventory to that particular Unit.

60 is an example. This would be rifle number 75 of the 60th Battalion Canadian Expeditionary Force (Victoria Rifles, Mopntreal, Canada)
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75

[Frederick303]

Well they are not common by any means in PA. I recall having seen exactly three unmodified MK II rifles with US markings in almost 30 years at PA gun shows and in local collections. I have seen exactly 4 sported MK II Ross rifles in that same period, so the sample size is rather small. In comparison, I have seen one Ross MK III in mint condition and one Ross MK IIIB rifle in well used condition. I have never seen a MK I or any variant of such a rifle outside of a Museum. As my first gun show was in 1983; that gives you some idea of the period of time for this sample size. To honest though, I have not ever been areal Ross rifle fan and so it is quite possible I have missed a few, though because I like .303 rifles I tend to look at them when I see them.

[nmckenzie]

Frederick 303: As usual, what was going on between my ears didn't end up in quite the same form when typed out. Didn't mean to say I took your post as saying Ross MkIIs were relatively common in eastern PA, but only that I wasn't surprised they were more commonly encountered than others. Never even saw a MkII until I moved to Alaska, and then it was a sporterized military with a jammed bolt. Always had a fondness for .303s, and figured I'd probably never see another Ross, so I told the rifle's owner I'd trade him a Mauser that did work or a Ross that didn't. Got it home, disassembled & reassembled it, and she's been working fine since. The Mauser was one of Mitchell's masterpieces which I'd bought simply because I wanted the Leupold IER mounted on the sight base. Eventually sold the scope for pretty much what I'd paid for the whole rig, so essentially I've $0 invested in the sporterized Ross. Needless to say, having acquired one Ross, another popped up within a month. This one, the MkII***, is now nestled between a Springfield M1903 and Winchester M1917, both 1918 dated.

[MGMike]

The proportion of U.S. surcharged Mk II*** that survived is probably fairly high, as I believe that most of those in the U.S. inventory after WWI were sold off through the DCM. Many of them, of course, were eventually sporterized. They are not particularly robust rifles, and many of their parts are fragile and easily damaged; it seems likely that over the years many have become unserviceable for one reason or another.

The fact that they are not frequently seen does not, in my view, mean much. How many Swedish M94 carbines are seen today, despite the fact that many thousands were imported and sold in the USA in the '50s and '60s. Where they all disappeared to is one of life's minor mysteries.

M

[Anzac15]

I have a friend here in Ga with a 1905 Ross that is US marked. Not sportered, even has a bayo with it. Have owned jillions of Lee Enfields, but never a Ross, and have been after one lately. Thinking of trying to trade him my P14 for it. The flaming bomb is, if memory serves, on the bottom of the wrist of the buttstock. Very nice rifles. Ross rifles are pretty scarce here.

[Brian Dick]

I've had 8 or 10 1905 Mk.II 3* rifles over the years. A few were complete with bayonets and scabbards. They are the most common to find in the lower 48.