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Thread: A couple of questions re WWII & Korean War Aust snipers

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  1. #21
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    Peter Laidler's Avatar
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    Your q's have been answered pretty well in the first part of the thread. But why bother with all this faffing around and learning a new click table etc etc when you can do the job just as well with your rifle that is designed and made to shoot Mk7, a telescope that is calibrated to cater for the trajectory of Mk7 and the two, matched together as a pair that were actually matched for........., yep, got it in one........ Mk7. The PMer who mentioned the thread 19 hit the nail on the head

    Nope, the use of Mk8z doesn't stand any degree of close scrutiny let alone a bit of forensic thought.

    I wish your question had asked about leed wear with MG barrels using Mk8z and the No2 leed wear gauges. No, on second thoughts, let sleeping dogs lie and the original questioner can make his own decision

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #22
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
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    I for one would like to hear about the difference in wear using the MKVIIIZ and MkVII. I have read the ammunition notes regarding the non use of MK VII in overhead fire Vickers barrels that had fired MK VIIIZ and not mixing the two ammunition types. I am very curious in any and all technical details.

    Now if the answer is the MK VIIIZ causes more wear, could you go into why that would be? I ask as the MK VII MDT cordite is supposed to have a higher burning temperature and as such I would expect the throat wear to be higher with the cordite. If not, I would be interested in the reason why that is not the case. The only possible explanation I can come up with is gas blow by (resulting in more gas cutting at the edges of the lands) because the MK VIIIZ ammunition does not have the powder wad. But how would that kind of war show up on a simple gauge?

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    Legacy Member jrhead75's Avatar
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    Frederick, have you read good ol' Pam 11A? It gives a pretty good explanation, if I'm understanding your question correctly.
    'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) comments:-

    APPENDIX 15

    (referred to in para.29)

    USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION

    1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
    Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
    N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.

    2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
    With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.

    3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
    In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
    In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.

    4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.

    5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
    The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.

    6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

    (a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

    (i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
    (ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
    (iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
    (iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

    (b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

    Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

    (c) Light M.G.s.

    Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

    (d) Rifles.

    N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
    above, if necessity should arise.

    7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stencilling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.

    8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from Britishicon weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.

  6. #24
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
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    I have read that, That actually was the reference I was referring to. It seemed from Capt Laidlers comments that the MK VIIIZ wear was somehow more severe or that there might be a point regarding MK VIII wear that was not covered in the conventional wisdom.

    I was asking as I recall a reference in a discussion on Cadets rifles where the good Capt. seemed to indicate the Cadet rifles shot equally well with MK VIIZ as well as regular lots of MKVII.

    Of course it may well be that the use of significant amounts of MK VII ammunition in a 4T would preclude accurate shooting with MK VIIIZ or the harmonics of the rifle would not be ideal for the use of MK VIIIZ.

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    Thanx to everyone for your contibutions to my questions. I've now learnt that Aust Army snipers did not use Mk8 or Mk8z ammo in their No.1 HTs. One old sniper said that he wouldn't have trusted using the Mk8z in his SMLE - too worried that it'd blow his head off (don't know if this was possible, but it was a rumour among Aust snipers that it was a risk). Our snipers appear to have almost exclusively used Aust manufactured Mk7 ammo, which the old sniper said was reliable and plentiful (although he also liked to use the US Springfield and Yank ammo). The only exception appears to be the use by snipers of tracer rounds, mainly in Korea, to help them estimate distances. Does anyon know how accurate this would have been when they would have followed up with standard ball ammo? I would assume that tracer and ball have different flight / ballistic characteristics.
    Glenn

  8. #26
    Advisory Panel Son's Avatar
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    Just a thought, but wouldn't a stopwatch for timing the time of flight give you a fair starting range? The same as the time between the crack of one passing overhead until the thump of the distant shot being fired gave a range for those trying to locate the sniper.
    The point is, if you are willing to fire a tracer round at the risk of the other team seeing where it is coming from, why not just use standard ammo and have a spotter try to locate fall of shot over a few rounds, making corrections.

    It is surprising how good you can become at estimating ranges to within about 50m. When I was doing a lot of shooting I would practice all the time when driving. Pick a distant marker on the roadside, might be a sign for a turn off or something, then guess the distance as you hit the trip meter reset on your dashboard. Estimating from 300 out to 1000m (in 100m increments on the trip meter) becomes fairly easy with practice.

    One difference the discussion over the ammo has left behind, the Patt18 scope on the HT does not have click increments, but a rotating range scale marked in hundreds of yards that shows the 100yd increments getting wider apart the longer the distance... and no clicks, just a lockscrew.
    It can be set to a known zero by loosening the two screws in the top and slipping the scale to the mark.
    Attachment 36529

    And here are the zeroing instructions (apology for the quality)

    Attachment 36530

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  10. #27
    Advisory Panel Brian Dick's Avatar
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    I know from experience with a Vickers Mk.1 that shooting the Mk.8 in a barrel well used with Mk.7 is quite an adventure. I detailed the results here a long time ago. To make a long story short, the target at 100 yards was riddled with perfect keyholes and the wooden target stand was shredded and fell apart after one belt! Dolf Goldmith sold me a new Australianicon barrel which I packed, installed and shot only with Mk.8 and it's perfect. You guys all know by now that I don't like boat tails in used Lee service rifles. I'm sort of set in my ways I guess and definitely opinionated! They are probably OK in a new No.4Mk.2 or rifle barreled up with a new or near new barrel but they're just a waste of money otherwise in my humble opinion. There was quite a bit of variation in bore diameter, especially in wartime production rifles which can also add to the boat tail problem. Stick with the Mk.7 or I like the 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter projectiles for reloading. They'll shoot pretty much to point of aim of the Mk.7 if you work up a proper load.

    ---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

    I wish a bullet manufacturer would make new 174 grain flat base Mk.7 bullets for reloading but there are none that I'm aware of on this side of the pond. The supply of good quality surplus ammo is very scarce on the ground now.

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