M1917 Eddystone Questions

[chaoticmachinery]

Hello,

Just to get this out there, I am very new to gun collecting and M1917s. But I have been doing a bunch of reading for the last two days on them.

I found a M1917 Eddystone for $450 at a pawn shop. The gun looks intact and there was some pitting inside of the barrel (plus it looked dirty). Also the leather sling looks orginal compared to some of the pictures I found on the Internet. There were cartouches on it OGEK (in a box) and RA-P. Overall, the stock looked pretty good. I am fairly sure it did not have JA barrel. Lastly, the original push rod and bayonet did not come with it.

So here are my questions that I cannot find answers on:
1) How much pitting is acceptable? I realize that the corrosive ammo was used.
2) How do I check bore? I bought a bore gauge for my m1 carbine, but I am assuming I need a different one for this rifle. If so, any recommendations for where to get one?
3) I keep reading that the headspacing needs to be checked. Where can I get gauges and what should I get? Any recommendations would be helpful.
4) Lastly, the big one is it worth the price? I would like to get it for collecting and to shoot it once in a while.

Thanks,
CM

Information

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[Calif-Steve]

What is the serial number? Is there a barrel date on/near the muzzle? Anything unusual about it? Lastly you need to run a WET patch down the bore. Could be OK, could be bad news. But try to get a patch down the bore, report back ASAP.

[Patrick Chadwick]

So here are my questions that I cannot find answers on: 1) How much pitting is acceptable? I realize that the corrosive ammo was used. 2) How do I check bore? I bought a bore gauge for my m1 carbine, but I am assuming I need a different one for this rifle. If so, any recommendations for where to get one? 3) I keep reading that the headspacing needs to be checked. Where can I get gauges and what should I get? Any recommendations would be helpful. 4) Lastly, the big one is it worth the price? I would like to get it for collecting and to shoot it once in a while.

1) How much pitting is acceptable?
- If you are looking for a good shooter, then practically none within a hand's width of the muzzle. But the state of the muzzle itself is of more immediate importance.

2) How do I check bore?
- Get a .36 soft lead ball as used by muzzle-loaders. Or a suitably sized fishing line sinker. Remove the bolt, stand the rifle vertically, muzzle down on a solid piece of wood, spray lubricant into the bore. Use a yard length of 1/4" brass rod to drive the lead ball through the barrel. Measure the groove diameter (easy) with calipers. Bore diameter on a 5-groove barrel is trickier. Crude test is to take a long bullet and twiddle it around in the muzzle so that the muzzle wears a bright ring on the bullet. Measure the diameter of this ring. Not so easy to do, but it will show you at once if you have a bell-mouthed bore, which would be a much more serious defect than an extra 0.001" or so in the bore, or fine pitting, or a dinged crown (easy to clean up).

In fact, the twiddled bullet test is one of the first things which you should check out in the shop, before even considering the rifle.

3) I keep reading that the headspacing needs to be checked. Where can I get gauges and what should I get? Any recommendations would be helpful.
- This topic has been covered in detail mor than once on this forum. Search for "headspace" (checking with gauges) and "head clearance" (checking without gauges).

4) Lastly, the big one is it worth the price? IMHO, not unless it checks out as a good shooter.

[chaoticmachinery]

1)
2) How do I check bore?
- Get a .36 soft lead ball as used by muzzle-loaders. Or a suitably sized fishing line sinker. Remove the bolt, stand the rifle vertically, muzzle down on a solid piece of wood, spray lubricant into the bore. Use a yard length of 1/4" brass rod to drive the lead ball through the barrel. Measure the groove diameter (easy) with calipers. Bore diameter on a 5-groove barrel is trickier. Crude test is to take a long bullet and twiddle it around in the muzzle so that the muzzle wears a bright ring on the bullet. Measure the diameter of this ring. Not so easy to do, but it will show you at once if you have a bell-mouthed bore, which would be a much more serious defect than an extra 0.001" or so in the bore, or fine pitting, or a dinged crown (easy to clean up).

In fact, the twiddled bullet test is one of the first things which you should check out in the shop, before even considering the rifle.

Patrick,

Please forgive my ignorance as I am new to this. You said take long bullet for the Crude test. Is there a bullet size I should use? Something like a 30-06?

Thanks,
CM

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sorry, it seems so obvious to me, I forget that it may not be obvious to others.

One of the basic items you should have if taking a look at rifle in a shop is a dummy round, made up from a fully-sized case with no primer but with a bullet firmly seated to maximum permitted overall length as per CIP or SAAMI. You will see why later. In this case, it would be a 30-06 dummy round.

1) "Paint" over the bullet with a felt-tip marker pen, and let the ink dry (only takes a few seconds)
2) Insert the bullet into the muzzle and twiddle the bullet around in the bore - in this action, the case is merely a holding device.
3) If the bullet goes in so far that the case mouth reaches the muzzle, the muzzle is badly bell-mouthed and you can forget the rifle as a shooter.
4) Normally, this will not happen. The bullet will stop with the case mouth about half to a full caliber clear of the muzzle. When you twiddle it around a bright line will be marked on the bullet. In principle you can measure the diameter of the bullet on this line, and you have the diameter of the bore at the muzzle. Not easy to do, but good enough to tell you if it's worth carrying on.

5) If you have the foresight to take with you a yard length of 1/4" threaded rod with 2 nuts on it, ideally 26 tpi (because that's very roughly 0.040 a turn) or a 6mm x 1mm pitch rod with two nuts on it - and after reading this, you will have that foresight, then you can proceed to make a quick check of the head clearance. Once again, this is not an "proper" headspace check, for which you would need a headspace gauge, but IMHO a much more useful measurement - how much clearance a real cartridge case has in the chamber of that rifle.
6) Load the dummy round and pull the trigger. Now you know why the dummy should not have a primer in it. Most types of rifle have a rebounding striker that returns behind the bolt face after firing, but not all. And you want the bolt to be "fired" so that you can see if there is a worrying amount of end play in the bolt against the lugs. If the bolt is cocked, then the striker spring pressure holds it back firmly against the lugs, and you cannot feel the play.
7) Insert the threaded rod and push in down until you feel it it contacting the bullet of the loaded dummy rouns and pushing it against the bolt face. Do not push hard, as you do not want to drive the bullet back into the case. Just feel for a definite contact.
8) Holding the rod in this position, run down both nuts until one just touches the muzzle. Keep one hand on the loose (because uncocked) bolt and you will feel the rod lift off the bolt face as soon as you run down the nut too far. practise a bit and you will find that with a 26 tpi or 1mm thread you can get a position that is repeatable to about +/- 0.002" i.e. a spread of about 1/10 turn, and with practise more like 0.001". In effect, you are using the rod as a very long depth gauge.
8) Without disturbing the first nut, run down the second nut so that it just touches. This second nut serves as a reference for the actual head clearance measurement, and once again, it takes a bit of practice.
9) Use the felt-tip pen to mark a line across the flats of both nuts, as a witness mark.
10) Open the bolt and push the dummy cartridge in to the chamber with a finger, pencil or whatever is handy. This will push the rod out a tiny amount, but it is this tiny amount we want to measure.
11) Holding that position, run down the first nut (the one closer to the muzzle) until you feel contact again. If you are pushing the cartridge in with a finger, the contact is easy to detect.
12) You will see that the witness mark on the nuts are no longer precisely aligned, because one nut has moved in. And the distance it has moved is the head clearance (NOT headspace). Nothing theoretical from the data sheets, but the actual play that a real, sized case of that brand has in that chamber. If the difference in the positions of the two marks on the nuts is less than 1/4 turn, in other words, about 10 thou, then I would consider the rifle a candidate for test firing. Because I fire real cartridges, not headspace gauges. And the head clearance can be tightened up, if necessary, by adjusting the sizing die to be not-quite-full-sizing when you reload. Or instantly go for a neck-sizer, if available.

The same idea can be used with a bullet by itself to establish the maximum overall length that a cartridge could have using that type of bullet in that particular rifle. Again, a somewhat more useful practical test than playing around with throat gauges, that cannot tell you if a rifle is usable with a specific type of bullet.

If the bullet sinks into the throat so far that the threaded rod measurement shows that the bullet would be free of the case before touching the lands, then the throat is too deep for that bullet in that rifle. Try different types of bullet, and you may be surpised at the results!

Enough for today, which is just about to turn into tomorrow over here!

[NavyEngineer]

The boxed "O.G.E.K." cartouche on your stock indicates the rifle was overhauled at Ogden Arsenal in Utah during World War Two, and personally inspected by Elmer Keith. In his autobiography, "Hell, I was There!", Elmer describes his work at the arsenal, and stated that he did all the final inspection and proof firing of rifles, and would not apply his stamp until he was satisfied that he would be willing to carry that rifle into combat. Of course, that was around 70 years ago, and the rifle may have seen a lot of use since then. It's still an interesting piece of history, and something you may want to keep in mind as you consider whether to purchase the rifle.

[NRA]

450 sounds good as far as price goes if all else checks out ok and as you say it has the original sling a m1907. The sling alone could be worth 100-150. A picture is worth a thousand guesses (love that line)