"Cogswell & Harrison" S&W Revolver Question

[scbair]

I have an old, 5-screw, S&W M&P revolver. The right side of the barrel is marked .38 S&W (not .38 S&W Special). It is also marked with some of the British identifiers ("3.5 Tons," etc.; pretty faint & not easy for my old eyes to decipher). On the left side of the frame, above the grip area, is "Converted by Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd, London."

I have read that a large number of old .38 S&W (or .380-200 British) Victory Models were converted to .38 Special by Cogswell & Harrison, for return to the American market.

Here's where I need some help. Mine is not a Victory Model (as best I can tell). It has a 6-digit serial number (418xxx) with no "V" prefix, and is blued (I think the original finish; the S&W marks are crisp & clear). I find no markings indicating governmental ownership or use (unless I'm overlooking something). It has the lanyard ring & swivel in the butt. Also, the grips are old, checkered walnut, but without the S&W escutcheons.

Finally, the front sight is unlike that of any other S&W M&P 5-screw I've ever seen. It is a sloped blade atop a sloped ramp (not the "half-moon" profile normally encountered).

I have (again) read that the revolvers converted from the original chambering to .38 Special were marked "Special" on the right side of the barrel, near the original ".38 S&W" stamp. Mine has no such added marking.

My questions:

1) Could this revolver have been a UK military issued WWII sidearm? Any info or background, sources, etc., would be appreciated.
2) Do you think it was converted to .38 Special, based on the "Converted by ..." mark on the frame? Or, could the "conversion" refer to something else, in light of no barrel marking re: cartridge (front sight, for instance)?
3) As the .38 S&W case is slightly larger in diameter than the .38 Special, many "conversions" are not safe to fire with Specials, as the cases often split. Any info re: Cogswell & Harrison conversions, in this regard? Are they considered safe (and if so, how did the company achieve this)?

I appreciate all info and assistance, and thank you in advance.

I'd attach photos, but my camera gear is dated, using that ol' 35 mm stuff, and I'm too technology-challenged to go digital .....

Ray

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Johnny Peppers]

Your S&W could have been purchased by the British Purchasing Commission prior to Lend-Lease. The commercial proofs you describe are post 1954. If I remember correctly each chamber on a revolver was proofed, and the barrel should also be proofed. Does the barrel of your S&W have a proof mark? If it has no proof mark the barrel may have been replaced at some later date, and the front sight you describe sounds like a later variety.

[emmagee1917]

It was shipped from the factory as a .38 S/W . Many people use the terms 38 S/W and 38/200 like .223 and 5.56mm or .308 and 7.62 . The 38/200 is a vastly hotter load in what is basicly the same case as the 38S/W .
Because the S/W revolvers were made for the 38 special , they ( and the Colts) could easily handle the pressures of the 38/200 . The barrels , however , were bored to Americian 38 S/W specs ( same as 38 special ) and the British had some concerns early on that the slightly fatter 38/200 bullet would put excessive strain on the skinny muzzles of the S/Ws ( Colts were thicker tubed ) . Therefore , early on , some were counterbored so as to reduce the pressure here . You might check the muzzle to see if that's the case here. If not , just try to slip in a 38 special . If it's still in unaltered 38 S/W , it will not go all the way in. If it does , the chamber has been lengthened to take 38 specials , but because the hole was drilled to take 38 S/W , which is fatter , it will be oversized for the special rounds. Not usually a safety issue with std pressure 38s , but case swelling usually results in stiff extraction and cases too bulged for reloading. You can still shoot 38S/Ws through it , though , kinda like firing 38 specials through a .357 .
As a compared loading , using a 200 gr lead bullet , 1.6 to 1.8 grs is for std 38 S/W . I use 2.7 grs. for the 38/200 . Because I use 38S/W marked cases , every box is marked 38/200 only , not for 38S/W tipups , Victories and Commandos only .
Stay safe , Chris

[Johnny Peppers]

The standard .38 S&W was normally loaded to 685 fps, where the .38-200 was loaded to 625 fps. Would this make the .38-200 vastly hotter?

[scbair]

Your S&W could have been purchased by the British Purchasing Commission prior to Lend-Lease. The commercial proofs you describe are post 1954. If I remember correctly each chamber on a revolver was proofed, and the barrel should also be proofed. Does the barrel of your S&W have a proof mark? If it has no proof mark the barrel may have been replaced at some later date, and the front sight you describe sounds like a later variety.

I'll study the piece more in depth (and with a magnifying lens) over the weekend. The proof marks I described are actually on the barrel. I have no doubt the front sight is aftermarket; just didn't know if that sort of ramp sight arrangement was known to be done on S&Ws by Cogswell & Harrison (or others).

I have a few boxes of .38 S&W ammo (also have an old Enfield Mk II revolver), and reloading dies. While I don't plan to shoot this one extensively, the sweet, smooth, long-action is too tempting to ignore ... I think it'll be no problem to load .358" bullets in a properly sized and crimped .38 S&W case, so no problem re: bore diameter.

Thanks for the additional info and feedback!

[Peter Laidler]

Fantastic knowledge there Johnny Peppers and Emmagee1917. Thanks for telling us

[emmagee1917]

Yes , It does !

You see , the std load you listed for the 38 S/W is for a 145/146 gr bullet . The 38/200 load is for the 200 gr lead bullet. You need to compare apples to apples . The 1.8 gr max 38 S/W load I listed was for a 200 gr lead bullet and it moves only 550 fps through a non-vented 5-1/2 inch test fixture . The 2.7 gr load moves a 200 gr lead bullet at 639 fps through a 5-inch " vented" S/W pistol . I am getting at least 100 fps more ( shorten the test fixture and vent it ) and burning 50% more powder ( others have gone as high as 3.0 grains , but I 1) do not want to stress these old guns , 2) am duplicating the 600-650 fps window of original specs , and 3) my guns are shooting to where they're regulated at 2.7 grains. Increasing the powder safely by 50 % over max. is making it a " magnum " , even if it is a pipsqueak one. Do not shoot this load in a lighter / weaker made pistol . I did not list the type of powder in use here , it is easily found on the internet , but I don't want someone saying they blew up thier great-great-grandmother's tip-up because of me.

As I said , stay safe , Chris


PS , sorry , it left out the post I was answering :
The standard .38 S&W was normally loaded to 685 fps, where the .38-200 was loaded to 625 fps. Would this make the .38-200 vastly hotter?

[Dave_n]

I have one of the C&H converted M&Ps. If you look very carefully at the front of each cylinder, you will see a concentric circle about 0.5mm out from the "hole" in the front of each chamber. What was done was to bore out the cylinder and then insert a sleeve in each chamber that brought it down to the S&W Special diameter. The barrel was often cut to around 4.5 inches and instead of being crowned, it was cut straight down. The ramp plus the sight on top of it often has a Parker-Hale marking if you look closely. The normal proof was the 3.5 tons sq in, rather than the 4 tons sq in of the 38 Special. However, as mentioned earlier in the string, the metal will definitely hold the "normal 0.38 Special" loading.

If you do not have a crowned barrel then it is worth having a gunsmith do this. It cost me all of $40 and converted a pistol that would give a 5" spread at 10 metres, to one that with the same load, gave a 2" circle at the same distance. Enjoy that old warrior. Dave_n

[Johnny Peppers]

Western Cartridge Co. had a load for the .38 S&W called the .38 Super Police which used a 200 gr. Lubaloy bullet. It was safe to fire in any Colt, S&W or other medium frame revolver. It doesn't matter what the powder charge is as long as the chamber pressures are kept within the limits of the standard .38 S&W load. The K frame S&W is absolutely safe to fire with with the 200 grain S&W cartridge.

[Peter Laidler]

There wasn't much danger of overloading or wearing out our .38" revolvers which included the RAF who had all the S&W's. The ammunition allocation for the whole battalion, and only those whom were issued with a revolver or had a revolver allocated to them was in the order of two rounds per man per year. It's TRUE. Added to this was a similarly minute allocation for use by Armourers. Things were a bit better at the big Base workshop but not a lot I can assure you but we always had loads stashed away for the proverbial rainy day