Type 38 with type 99 bolt?

[Old Joe]

As I was doing the anual cleaning on my Arisaka's I pulled out a type 38 that had givin ( as I remember) problems on the range with misfires ect. I pulled out the bolt and to my shock found it was actually a type 99 bolt with an earlier safety.

This bolt will only fit into this Type 38 Rifle and my Type 99's

The Mum of this Rifle is ground yet clearly someone had taken care of it..

As i am now as confused as a monkey shot into Space, I leave these images for your gentlemans approval..

I have layed out all three bolts with the ground one being in the middle

Old Joe

Information

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[Salt Flat]

Old Joe, Based on the ejector grooves the two bolts on the left appear to be Type 99. The one on the right a Type 38. (Ref the picture of the 3 bolts together)

I have a bolt and receiver for both a 99 and a 38 in front of me. The 99 bolt wil fit into the 38 receiver and close. However the bolt lugs are short so if I push back on the bolt face, the first thing to stop movement is the bolt handle (which is the safety lug). NOT GOOD!!
The 38 bolt will not close in the 99 receiver because the lugs are too long.
This is what the bolt lugs measure (fore to aft) on my bolts:
Type 99 =.400
Type 38 =.503

I'm surprised you didn't have some severe indications of the misfit. Possibly the bolt handle/ safety lug saved your rear. Also make sure the rifle is a type 38 (type markings on receiver ring are parrallel to the bore). Salt Flat

[Old Joe]

The bolt of the 99 is clearly ground down to fit the 38 and the bolt fits nicely..The Type 38 bolt does not go far enough to lock and the unmodified Type 99 Bolt will not even make it to the magazine well. This is a definatly a Type 38.

My first thought was since the mum was ground and the rifle had an earlier frontsight it was an attempt to get the rifle to work with a different bolt later war.

The other thought was sombody modified it to fire a wildcat round of some sort ...

Thanks for your post, its just Bizzare...

[Salt Flat]

Old Joe, What part of the bolt has been ground? I can't see it in the pictures. Also, Did the cases swell? (6.5 right?) Does the barrel appear to have been set back? You might need a chamber cast and definitely a headspace check. Take a flashlight and look at the chambering. Does it look freshed out or recently reamed? I wouldn't shoot it with a bolt that has been ground on. The business about the 99 bolt being ground to fit the T38 doesn't seem right since the 99 bolt lugs are already shorter than on the 38 bolt. I'm not questioning what you are saying but it just doesn't add up. Just need a little more info and maybe we can figure it out. Salt Flat

[Salt Flat]

Old Joe, I might have the answer. I took a T99 bolt and tried it in a T38. I could only install it with the extractor removed. I'm guessing the grinding you are talking about is on the extractor so that it will fit down the T38 extractor groove. Yes the bolt fits in and feels like a nice fit but it is not! The locking lugs are not contacting the receiver abutment area (by more than .100) and the only thing resisting the chamber pressure is the bolt handle in it's receiver slot. Confirm this by trying to slide a piece of paper between the back edge of the bolt handle and the slot in the receiver for the handle (with the bolt fully engaged). In a correct rifle there will be a nice amount of clearance. In your setup I would suspect the firing pin spring is forcing the bolt body back until it is stopped by the bolt slot in the recever. The misfires you spoke of would go hand in hand with this condition. If this proves out to be the case it is a very dangerous condition as the headspace is WAY to much. Salt Flat

[Old Joe]

If this proves out to be the case it is a very dangerous condition as the headspace is WAY to much.

Thanks again for your efforts Salt Flat,

The Type 38 Rifle in question is non-series Koishikawa Arsenel, with a ser number in the high 800000's. It has an S barral and an earlier front sight post. The stock is in perfect condition with an exceptional amout of blueing left. There is no evidence what so ever of an existing Mum ( this does not mean it did not exsist, but someone took exceptional time to remove it. There are some feint scratcings above this mum location which could be some additional marking or my imagination). I have tried four Type 38 bolts and none have locked. My guess would be since it does have a Type 99 bolt it was put back in circulation late war and was never used. Kinda like a last ditch type 38.

Having said all this I will never ofcourse fire this rifle again. I may make a u-tube video and discharge the weapon safely from a distance to show it can before I demil it for posterity's sake. If so that stupidity is far in my future.

Thank you again for your efforts.

Old Joe

[Salt Flat]

Old Joe, Just one last thought. Did you try removing the extractors on the Type 38 bolts before inserting them? I have found that they will often not allow the bolt to close if from another rifle. This interference will be right at the nose of the extractor. Also note that the stock and useable parts are all quite valuable if you part out the rifle. Salt Flat

[Old Joe]

Since nothing on the rifle really matches, once I make the vidio as a curious " heads up", I will replace the extracter and save the bolt. I will also swap the stock with one of two thrity eights with chewed ones I have. I actually have a broken 6.5 bolt I'll put in there with a broken firing pin. I odly just got a 38 with a broken magazine spring so after that swap I may have assembled the crappyest type 38 in the US. I will then D-mill it still and use it as a snap in rifle or actualy a wall hanger.

The adventure continues..

Old Joe

[bragheallach]

This long Chinese built T38 will not take a normal T38 bolt, it turns about halfway down after going in normally. My guess the receiver lug recess's or seat of the bolt are different so it can't fully lock. Thanks Joe for the insight on your odd find, is it Mukden built?
B

As I was doing the anual cleaning on my Arisaka's I pulled out a type 38 that had givin ( as I remember) problems on the range with misfires ect. I pulled out the bolt and to my shock found it was actually a type 99 bolt with an earlier safety.

This bolt will only fit into this Type 38 Rifle and my Type 99's

The Mum of this Rifle is ground yet clearly someone had taken care of it..

As i am now as confused as a monkey shot into Space, I leave these images for your gentlemans approval..

I have layed out all three bolts with the ground one being in the middle

Old Joe