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  1. #1
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    Carcano M-38??

    hi , I have been reading up here for a few weeks, great info, Thanks

    I have a new family hand me down! I believe it is a carcano m-38
    the barrel is just over 20" and the over all length is 40"
    the rifling is consistent in its rate of twist
    marked 6.5 terni 1940 XXIII, unfortunatly the stock has been shortened - sporterized(i hate that word)
    Attachment 40080Attachment 40081Attachment 40082Attachment 40083Attachment 40084
    I took her completely apart, cleaned oiled and re assymbled
    she cycles fine and I cycled a full 6 round clip in and out of the chamber
    I test fired her with 4 rounds of the new Hornady 6.5 carcano ammo, it was available locally and I got it before I had done much research on the rifle.

    the first and second rounds fired fine,
    the third and fourth rounds fired fine as well, but after looking at the casings I noticed the primers had blown out of the casings and there was an impression of the bolt on the end of the casing as well.
    the closest gunsmith is 40 miles away and he does not have a feild gage for this rifle to test headspace, he also said it may be an over pressure problem and may be the bullet diameter. have any of you had this problem before?
    Attachment 40085Attachment 40086

    I dug the bullet out of the dirt embankment, only found the copper case, no lead!!

    If I can get her operational, I would like to put her back in orriginal form in time for deer season
    Thanks
    Stephen
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    A few questions and things to consider-- Do the pimers stick out on the cases that didn't blow. If so how much? Did you find the primers that came out? I've shot some old ammo where the primers just kind of vaporized when shot. I think these were very old with corrosive primers. Check the bore size. Slug it with a cast bullet and mike the lands and grooves. Check the overall case length of the fired cases compared to a new cartridge or reloading specs. Are the cases bulged or split anywhere? I think the first thing that comes to mind is excessive headspace so get that checked out. It is also possible that the chamber has been reamed to accept a different cartridge. Next I would check into the ammo. What are the presssure specs on that hornady ammo? I see you used a tire to remote fire. Good idea! Salt Flat.
    Last edited by Salt Flat; 01-29-2013 at 12:32 AM.

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    I'm guessing that the bore is a bit rough which will run pressures up some with the .267" Hornady bullets. That could well cause the primers to fall out.

    Not likely headspace. That produces completely different symtoms, like case head separations.


    No more Hornady ammo for that rifle! Try some Prvi instead after a vist to your gunsmith. It's only 40 miles.

    (BTW, there's another possible cause and that is excessively soft brass cases. Have had that some years ago with Hornady .308 match ammo. Those rounds would drop expended primers all the time. Rather annoying, and possibly dangerous in an M1icon Garand...)
    Last edited by jmoore; 01-29-2013 at 03:36 AM.

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    Good photos, BTW! And using the time honored "old tire machine rest" is wise.

    Looking at the recovered jacket (the lead does commonly separate with these bullets, but that's not a problem, just momentum) it looks like the bullet is not close to being oversized as the rifling marks don't displace metal to the rear, nor does the jacket seem to fill the grooves completely.
    So rough bore combined with long bearing length bullet makes pressures spike.

    The downside to using .264" bulleted ammo is that accuracy isn't likely to be all that good. Maybe good enough for a short range deer gun, but you'll have to judge for yourself.

    Too bad there's not a dual diametered bullet or a bullet of proper size with a short bearing length available. (The old .264 Win Mag bullets used the dual diameter concept to keep pressures reasonable.)

    ETA:Looking further, the rounds with the primers intact seem very nice. No stretch marks either longitudinally or radially. Not headspace nor oversized chamber.

    Rough bore (the inside is likely not much better- probably worse- than the outside!) or soft brass. Them's me guesses until more info is available!
    Last edited by jmoore; 01-29-2013 at 03:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixteenacrewood View Post
    the first and second rounds fired fine, the third and fourth rounds fired fine as well, but after looking at the casings I noticed the primers had blown out of the casings and there was an impression of the bolt on the end of the casing as well.

    I agree 100% with jmoore.

    I would like to add that the reason why the first couple of rounds were OK may have been that the bullet was not excessively large in diameter (as has already been observed) but the rough bore was stripping bits off the jackets, filling the pits, so that succeeding bullets experienced more resistance. In other words, horrifically fast coppering of the rough bore. And maybe a contributing factor in the jacket being left behind the lead core.

    First, I suggest a thorough bore cleaning with a copper solvent.
    Secondly, if it is still available, get hold of some of the NECO bore lapping paste. This is about a 1200 grit paste. If it is no longer available, you will just have to look for an alternative. In the past, people have been know to use old-fashioned chalky toothpaste - it just takes longer!
    Then get some of the PRVI ammo, as already recommended. Hard lead bullets would be more effective, if you are a reloader or know one who can help.
    And two palm-sized pieces of flat steel plate.
    A tiny dab of the paste is smeared over one surface of one plate, then the bullet is rolled between the plates, with quite firm pressure. Since the plates are much harder than the jacket, some paste particles are pressed into the surface of the jacket. Wipe off the bullets and use.
    When those bullets are fired, they will smooth down the rough edges of the pits that (my quess) were shaving off the jacket material and producing the enormous friction that resulted in the overpressure.

    It may take you 40-50 shots of "pasted" bullets to notice any difference, but - if my remote diagnosis is correct - the signs of overpressure should gradually disappear.

    I realize that the above is somewhat hypothetical, and would welcome comment from others.
    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 01-29-2013 at 04:44 PM. Reason: typo

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    I would contact Hornady and advise them of what has happened with your rifle. You can email them the pictures of the fired cases. I have a feeling it's the ammo and not the bullets that is the problem as the first two were fine. I would not be surprised if they exchange the ammo for you with new.

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    Thread Starter
    Thanks for all the help
    I shot the photos of the rifle before I cleaned her up, there was no rust or pitting on the underside when I removed the stock!

    I do need to find info on the best way to clean up the metal and wood.

    the casings with primers still intact have not pushed out at all and look like the unfired rounds when comparing primer to case.

    all 4 of the fired cases are the same length and there is no deformation of the neck, also the spot where they taper apear to be the same, so no elongation. also no dammage other than the primer missing, I never found them!!

    I am going to try and get a photo of the rifling and post it, will be tomorrow before I get a chance. The first few shots did not come out right.

    I have been using a tripod and time delay for my photos, that helps a lot for clear upclose shots. I am a woodworker by trade and have to shoot photos of my work regularly, so I have a simi permanent setup for photos.

    I think the rough bore may be worth addressing and I'll get the copper solvent when I can get to town. I will also visit the gunsmith, he was very helpful over the phone, and suggested I bring the casses and bullet as well as the rifle.

    I did message hornady and will email them the photos once they respond. The website only had an automated contact sheet and no direct email. but I imagine they will respond.

    I would really like to put this rifle back to the orriginal configuration, if I get her to shoot properly. I may try to splice on the front part of the stock that was cut off and buy a hand guard and barrel bands.

    If you were to look for another Carcano like this, would you try a gun show, online auctions, or local gun shops?

    Thanks again for all the advise

    Stephen

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    Legacy Member Salt Flat's Avatar
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    Six, I restored one that started out like yours but in retrospect it took a lot of fooling around and probably cost almost as much as if I would have found a complete original. I bought one of the last replacement stocks that Sarco was selling. Stocks come up on Ebay occasionly but the prices are rising. Carcanos were cut down by the bazillions just like the 1898 Krags so everybody wants a stock and hardware. Some of the bands and screws are available from Springfield Sporters Inc. (SSporters.com). The other parts are available thru Numrich. You can make the forepiece but your stock has been altered behind the rear band and the stock would never look qute right. Something i am cosidering for my second Carcano is to make a stock from scratch using my Sarco stock as a pattern. It sounds ridiculous, but if you study the inletting and contours I think it is quite possible. I've handmade several other stocks and it has been prety interesting. Next time I get to our local hardwood store I'm going to check out their Beech wood. Salt Flat
    Last edited by Salt Flat; 01-29-2013 at 11:38 PM.

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    Great info Sixteen'.........I really liked your shooting bench. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty about the dimensions of the bore and rifling, and the chambers and bolts of these "sporterized" Carcanos and no certainty about what was actually done to these altered rifles. I'll watch your posts with great interest to see what Hornady suggests with respect to your experience. I have only fired Privi soft point ammo in two weights and have not reloaded anything
    with .267-.268 diameter bullets so have not had need, so far, for the tire and rope set up.....the cartridges all performed properly and accuracy to 100 yards has been reasonable for these crappy sights and my old eyes. I am expecting good results from four of these rifles once I get them scoped scoped and as mentioned above they should be at the very least good for deer at shorter ranges. Please share more posts on your findings as I am sure the information will be appreciated by many Carcano owners......thanks....karl

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixteenacrewood View Post
    If you were to look for another Carcano like this, would you try a gun show, online auctions, or local gun shops

    I'd much rather inspect one in person before buying, especially if you intend on shooting it. Not only for bore condition, but for bolt lift. Some Carcanos have very poor cocking and/or extraction cams so cycling the action with the firing pin down is difficult. Other than those two items specific to these rifles, they're about the same as buying any other old rifle.

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