Werder Carbine Accuracy

[villiers]

I realise that there aren´t many Werders out there, so interest will not be excessive. But I´ve had the Werder for over a year now and it´s just beginning to show what it can do. The first months were frustrating. Loading the cases was anything but successful and I couldn´t even hit the large target at 50 metres. But things have suddenly worked out. I´ve now found a perfect load and found out most of the things that went wrong. The carbine´s only 80 cm long, but isAttachment 40483Attachment 40484 even more accurate than my LE No. 5. The last three round group at the top of the 10 inch target at 100 metres was the latest achievement. So it was not the weapon. It was me.

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[Richardwv]

Finding what works can be one of the most frustrating....but also most rewarding part of the hobby. I've beat my head against the wall on some of the more odd ball ones for 100s of rounds before homing in on a workable load....and of course fine tuning it to your rifle is something that is ongoing for as long as it holds your interest. There are likely more Werder rifles/carbines out there than you might suspect, but most are gathering dust for want of a ready source of decent ammo. It never ceases to amaze me the number of individuals that collect antique arms that have no interest in making the ammo for them and getting them back on the range.

[RCEMERalf]

Villiers, that is awesome! I sold my Werder rifle a few years ago, but am interested in your successful load. Might you share with us how you put this together? Any advice for loading the pistol? Thanks.

[villiers]

Villiers, that is awesome! I sold my Werder rifle a few years ago, but am interested in your successful load. Might you share with us how you put this together? Any advice for loading the pistol? Thanks.

The Werder pistol shares the same ammunition (11.5x35R Werder). The original bullet was 22.0 grammes (339.5 grains). I cerrocast the breech and barrel at both ends and had a mold made to the dimensions (so haven´t sized the bullets). My bullets come out at 25,3 grammes (390.4 grains). I´ve been advised to weigh each bullet after casting and reject any that aren´t within weight limits (but haven´t done that yet). The problem with the trapdoor is that the bullet has to come up to the grooves, but even the slightest pressure (length or carbon deposit) stops the ramp from closing the breech. I found that grease between the charge and the bullet seems to stick to the base of the bullet and it then goes wild. There definitely must be a paper (cork) .45 wad between the grease and the base of the bullet.

The original load was 2.5 grammes (38.58 grains) but there´s then insufficient space for the grease etc. and the bullet goes far over the top of the target at 100 yards. I use 17 grains of No. 2 BP + 2/3rds of a .45 cleaning felt patch with the grease between a .45 cork disk and the bullet. The finished round is then sized, as some of them have expanded necks from inserting the bullets and wouldn´t fit in the breech otherwise. Even with the reduced load, I had to get hold of a higher front sight blade.

It might sound like more work than is worthwhile but it´s now all come together and I´ll try increasing the charge for 300 metres (yards). The point is that all the advice I´ve been given as to the lack of accuracy of the Werder is most likely due to re-loading. The Werder barrel is firmly attached to the stock at both ends and is completely separated from the action (that can easily be removed for cleaning), so that all the problems of a standard, bolt action rifle (bedding etc) do not arise. My admiration for Bavarian technology has increased no end.

[crofter]

Hello, I have joined the forum because I have studied this thread with great interest: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34389&page=9. If the original participants are no longer interested I'll start a new thread. My interest is because I too have a Werder carbine and an M71 and wanted to load one or the other. After reading, I think I'll try the Werder using (initially) off-the-shelf components. Johanssen/Horneber cases, Swiss #3, a .44 Lee crimping die and a sizing die if available. This project is at a very early stage because I haven't reloaded for about 40 years

My questions are:
- what available bullet or mould could I start with?
- what is the wad made of? I see reference to 'milk carton' but I'm not sure if that equals milk cartons in the UK today.
- Is there a satisfactory off-the-shelf melting lube for the 'cookie' under the bullet?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Hello, I have joined the forum because I have studied this thread with great interest: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34389&page=9. If the original participants are no longer interested I'll start a new thread. My interest is because I too have a Werder carbine and an M71 and wanted to load one or the other...

My questions are:
- what available bullet or mould could I start with?
- what is the wad made of? I see reference to 'milk carton' but I'm not sure if that equals milk cartons in the UK today.
- Is there a satisfactory off-the-shelf melting lube for the 'cookie' under the bullet?

Congratulations on finding one of the best sites for shooting old bangers!

Yours is a clear case. You need Patrick or Patrick!

Patrick Villiers is the only person I know who has seriously got to grips with the Werder carbine.
And if you want to shoot the M71, then Patrick Chadwick (that's me!) has posted a lot on the care and feeding ot that particular beast.
Just search the blackpowder and reloading section of these forums - it's all in there somewhere.

- Bullet moulds - as it says over and over again in the Lyman manual - slug your bore and size accordingly. Something like a .45 round ball (soft lead!) driven through from end to end will provide a slug that can be used to measure bore and groove diameters. If you are not sure of the appropriate size of mould, just post the measurements here and Patrick (or Patrick) will advise you.

- Wad - the material is a waxed card, as found in modern rectangular milk cartons. You will need a 12mm punch to cut out the wads. They need to be a bit larger than the neck of the case, to achieve a firm, tight seating, so that lube cannot leak through into the powder charge.

- Lube - Probably any BP lube will work. Many people use cooking fat. I have even used coconut fat and Nivea cream (both smell pleasant). The critcial points are 1) it must be animal or vegatable base, not mineral 2) it must be sufficient. Pragmatically, there should be a slight "star" of lube left around the muzzle after firing. And practically, as one who participates in competitions under military rules (no cleaning between shots) this is around 04. to 0.5 cc, depending on the powder charge, as the primary intention is to keep the fouling soft, not to grease the bullet.

Slug your bore, search the forums suggested, and write back!

Patrick Chadwick