First M1903 - Pics and Questions

[Kruger667]

Hello all,

My name is Mark. I recently found this site and acquired my first M1903. I believe it is a Remington M1903 Modified before they started making the A3 models. Anyways, I was looking for a shooter with a good barrel and not something too collectible that I would be afraid to take out from time to time. I also wanted the goofy ladder sights.

Anyways, here are some general shots. Ignore the mess. I sleep on my couch most of the time, though I have a separate bed.







The stock had a hairline crack that actually was a little bigger upon field strip. I decided to pin it myself because I didn't want it to grow. Again, I wasn't crazy about my first M1903 being a safe queen. I can get a nicer looker later when I know more about these rifles.

So I added two screws to the stock. Only one of the screw shafts was visible after cleanup and assembly. I had to work the stock after pinning to clear up any mismatches above and below the crack. I think I did an OK job for my first time. It is very rigid now and I don't have to worry about it growing anymore.







OK so now 2 questions:

1) My front trigger guard screw never seems to completely snug up like the rear guard screw. It gets tight (Actually pretty tight), but it doesn't feel like a definite stop as on the rear guard screw or for example the stock bands. The threads in the receiver don't look stripped to me. I know there is no real bushing in the front screw like the rear, so maybe I am just compressing the wood stock?

I noticed I might be able to get a longer front screw to maybe engage more threads. What would you recommend? Shoot it and don't worry? Put a little blue or purple loctite on the threads and call it a day?



2) Finally, to me the front sight looks crooked. I think the barrel is "clocked" (?) correctly. You can kind of see it from this outside shot. With the stock off the matching lines are clearer. The image below is a close up on the left side just in front of the magazine cutoff selector.










I plan on shooting it this weekend. If that is normal and shoots alright, I am OK. The look of the crookedness doesn't bother me. I am not expecting crazy accuracy out of this, but I don't want the rounds a foot or two to the right or have to adjust the windage all of the way to one side to compensate. I am ok with bending the blade on the sight to get it over the top of the barrel again if it would be an easy fix.


Thanks for your time. I am really excited about this rifle and being a member on this forum. Any help is appreciated.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[John Beard]

Your rifle appears to have been arsenal overhauled and re-assembled from mixed parts. In that case, the rifle has limited collectibility. Shoot it and enjoy. Answers to your questions are as follows:

(1) Several different variants of front trigger guard screws exist. You need an early screw that is 0.1" longer and has round threads.

(2) The clocking error between the front and rear sights has no relationship with the receiver. Both sights are mounted on the barrel and the clocking error is a possible barrel manufacturing defect. More likely, however, the clocking error may indicate that the rear sight base collar around the barrel has been replaced. If so, then it is what it is. If you gave us the rifle's serial number, barrel manufacturer, and barrel date, that might give us a clue regarding the sight issue.

Hope this helps. Good Luck!

J.B.

[Kruger667]

1) I will look for the longer front screw if that will help. Is it supposed to feel like it bottoms out, or should it just tighten till snug? Anyways, I will get one on order and replace the front screw. Where is a good place to find the longer 1.0" screws. I have found some sites that are selling screws but don't label their size.

2) Info:
Serial Number: 3219298, there is one peen mark below the serial number on the receiver
Barrel: RA 9-42, there is one peen in the middle of the logo, 4 groove rifling, looks pretty clean

I do believe it is an arsenal rebuild. I see 1 "P" on the barrel and behind the trigger group. In front of the trigger group, I see a small cross. The stock is lightly marked with "S.A." in a box near the butt of the rifle.

Thank you so much for your reply. Again, I am not looking to sink a lot of money into this rifle (I think I already paid a little too much for it, but it was an impulse buy from a local store). If it can shoot ok, that's fine. From what I can tell, the rear collar is drilled and pinned in place. So changing the clocking of it looks like it might be a gunsmithing job, which I don't really want to do, but I will if it is necessary. Again, I am going to take this out in a few days and try to sight in. Is there any likelihood that it will shoot OK, or from the images above, does it look like this won't be a good shooter?

[Chuckindenver]

the rear sight base is out of index, and needs to be set straight...

[Kruger667]

John and Chuck,

Thank you for the replies. I posted more images of the barrel. I don't see the pin that indexes the rear sight base, it almost looks like it was ground down.

Is re-indexing the rear sight base something I can do or should I take it / send it to a gunsmith?

I have to be honest. I am starting to feel pretty sour about this. I paid $800 for this and now I feel pretty dumb. I was hoping because it was an arsenal rebuild, that it would be a good shooter (and maybe it still is, I haven't had it out to the range yet). Again, I didn't really care about the collector value of the item, but I still wanted an older 1903.

At this point, I am willing to send it to someone who knows about these rifles and can help me. I'd like to get an honest opinion if it is worth fixing. I am willing to send it to a smith if anyone here knows one or is willing to work on this rifle. I don't really know any local ones and I am worried about selecting a bad one.

I go back and forth on the front sight, it looks crooked to me, but then when I sight it down the rear sights, it is hard to tell. When I look from the front of the barrel back, it definitely looks like the blade is off the center-line.

I understand that this is a 60-70 year old rifle and it is going to have it quirks / need work, but I can't help but feel I made a stupid decision. Any help is appreciated.

Mark

[John Beard]

1) I will look for the longer front screw if that will help. Is it supposed to feel like it bottoms out, or should it just tighten till snug? Anyways, I will get one on order and replace the front screw. Where is a good place to find the longer 1.0" screws. I have found some sites that are selling screws but don't label their size.

2) Info:
Serial Number: 3219298, there is one peen mark below the serial number on the receiver
Barrel: RA 9-42, there is one peen in the middle of the logo, 4 groove rifling, looks pretty clean

I do believe it is an arsenal rebuild. I see 1 "P" on the barrel and behind the trigger group. In front of the trigger group, I see a small cross. The stock is lightly marked with "S.A." in a box near the butt of the rifle.

Thank you so much for your reply. Again, I am not looking to sink a lot of money into this rifle (I think I already paid a little too much for it, but it was an impulse buy from a local store). If it can shoot ok, that's fine. From what I can tell, the rear collar is drilled and pinned in place. So changing the clocking of it looks like it might be a gunsmithing job, which I don't really want to do, but I will if it is necessary. Again, I am going to take this out in a few days and try to sight in. Is there any likelihood that it will shoot OK, or from the images above, does it look like this won't be a good shooter?

Ooops! After reading your latest description again, I just realized that you apparently already have the longer front trigger guard screw. And that's the problem! You need the shorter screw. The longer screw sometimes bottoms out in the receiver threads before cinching down the trigger guard. Alternatively, you can just simply grind down the existing screw length by 0.1 inches.

Thanks for the info on the serial number and barrel date. Your rifle has its original barrel. The barrel has not been replaced or tampered with.

J.B.

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

John and Chuck,

Thank you for the replies. I posted more images of the barrel. I don't see the pin that indexes the rear sight base, it almost looks like it was ground down.

Is re-indexing the rear sight base something I can do or should I take it / send it to a gunsmith?

I have to be honest. I am starting to feel pretty sour about this. I paid $800 for this and now I feel pretty dumb. I was hoping because it was an arsenal rebuild, that it would be a good shooter (and maybe it still is, I haven't had it out to the range yet). Again, I didn't really care about the collector value of the item, but I still wanted an older 1903.

At this point, I am willing to send it to someone who knows about these rifles and can help me. I'd like to get an honest opinion if it is worth fixing. I am willing to send it to a smith if anyone here knows one or is willing to work on this rifle. I don't really know any local ones and I am worried about selecting a bad one.

I go back and forth on the front sight, it looks crooked to me, but then when I sight it down the rear sights, it is hard to tell. When I look from the front of the barrel back, it definitely looks like the blade is off the center-line.

I understand that this is a 60-70 year old rifle and it is going to have it quirks / need work, but I can't help but feel I made a stupid decision. Any help is appreciated.

Mark

As your photos clearly show, your rear sight base collar has not been tampered with. And whatever you do, DO NOT attempt to remove it or re-index it. You will likely damage your rifle and substantially de-value it. And you will not likely succeed in re-indexing it.

And anything you attempt with the front sight will likely end up boogering it up. I recommend that you shoot and enjoy your rifle as is. The indexing issue is easily compensated by simply turning the windage knob a few degrees. It's as simple as that.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[Kruger667]

Thanks for the reply. You are right, I do have the longer 1.0" screw. From a quick glance, it does look like the screw runs out of threads before the stock gets tight. I'll try to find a shorter screw or correct the current.

Thanks for the note about the barrel. I didn't mean to sound depressed / doomy gloomy earlier, but I am new to these rifles. So when I see the ground pins on the rear base, I don't know if thats from the factory or not and it can be scary. I'll take the rifle out on Saturday and try it out. You are right, a slight change in the wind age does really move the sight picture over and I think it would compensate quite well for the sight.


Was there a tolerance at the factory for the front to rear sight alignment?

[Chuckindenver]

i have seen a few military issue barrels with the sight base out of index, though not a big issue, really not something you should do your self, most gunsmiths wont have a clue how to index it correctly without damaging the base,
what you may find, is that after the sight base is indexed correctly, that the barrel itself is under indexed..kind of a double edged sword sort of thing.
only way to really fix the issue, is to remove the rear sight base, make sure the barrel is indexed correctly, and install the rear sight base correctly.
i just did this for another gunsmith yesterday that had sent me his rifle to make a sniper replica out of, though he wont likely use the iron sights, it bugged me, so now..its right

[Chuckindenver]

correct indexing, after repair

after looking back at your pictures. i belive the barrel itself is out of index as well as the sight base, they set the index lines on the base and reciever correctly, so the rear sight is level with the rifle, and thr front sight is cocked out of index,
the rear sight base will have to be removed, and the barrel re indexed correctly, and the rear base installed correctly, then the sight picture will be square, ill bet the bolt extactor drags on the extractor cut as well, and gives a sticky feel , this repair will cure that as well.
iv seen a few SA 42 and 44 barrels with this issue.. some were even marked Reject on them.

[John Beard]

Thanks for the reply. You are right, I do have the longer 1.0" screw. From a quick glance, it does look like the screw runs out of threads before the stock gets tight. I'll try to find a shorter screw or correct the current.

Thanks for the note about the barrel. I didn't mean to sound depressed / doomy gloomy earlier, but I am new to these rifles. So when I see the ground pins on the rear base, I don't know if thats from the factory or not and it can be scary. I'll take the rifle out on Saturday and try it out. You are right, a slight change in the wind age does really move the sight picture over and I think it would compensate quite well for the sight.


Was there a tolerance at the factory for the front to rear sight alignment?

The ground pins on your rear sight base are indeed factory original. The pins were ground off flush for the specific purpose of discouraging removal. And speaking from experience, I encourage you to respect that principal. And I see nothing to indicate that your barrel is indexed improperly with respect to the receiver.

As a matter of fact, there was indeed a factory tolerance for sight misalignment. They set the rear sight windage to zero, then adjusted the front sight windage to zero by targeting (firing) the rifle. If the front sight offset in the dovetail exceeded a certain amount, the rifle was rejected and repaired. I no longer recall what the offset limit was. I note, however, that the original witness mark on your front sight is still present. So your rifle still has its original front sight. Perhaps it will target to zero, or very close.

Hope this helps.

J.B.