Australian use of old Ross sniper rifles in WWII??

[gwahlert]

I recently interviewed a 92 yr old veteran of the Kokoda Track (Papua New Guinea WWII). His mind was sharp, as was his memory. He was emphatic that his battalion, the 3rd Bn, was issued with six old (assumed he meant WWI vintage) Canadian sniper rifles, with scopes, in late 1942. Most of the Australian snipers were issued with either the British (but made in USA) P14 sniper rifle, or heavy barrel Lee Enfield SMLE HT, in late 1942. But these went first to the 2nd AIF - his militia Bn got what ever was left. This is the first I've heard of the Australians using the Ross rifle. Has anyone know of the Aust Army using or even having Ross rifles?
Thanx, Glenn

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[browningautorifle]

That's very interesting Glenn...I could see the sniper rifles being held in reserves somewhere and eventually coming to light when needed.

[Surpmil]

You should ask more questions such as "where was the scope mounted: overhead or offset", "was the bolt different from the Lee Enfield in any way?" (not giving away the straight pull aspect ;-) )

I've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of confusion between the P14 and the Ross in the minds of many soldiers. Tom Barker, whose memoirs "Sniper on Crete" are online, was also told that his rifle was a Ross. I corresponded with him and we determined from the features that he could definitely remember, that his rifle was an Alex Martin converted P14 with an offset scope, probably an Aldis No2 or No3. He also told me where he put it before he was ordered to surrender, so one day I shall visit that part of Crete!

It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.

One has to remember that 99.9999% of soldiers are not firearms enthusiasts: a rifle is just a tool to them and they remember only the most distinctive features as most people would. In the case of the Ross and P14 that is the one piece stock and the projecting barrel.

The straight pull is the kicker though.

Ask him if he or any of his former mates have any photos showing their rifles.

[ssj]

That's very interesting Glenn...I could see the sniper rifles being held in reserves somewhere and eventually coming to light when needed.

Its interesting trying to fathom how that time was from here 70+ years later. Officially the book I have says many WW1 sniper rifles were recalled after the war and dismantled and some parts kept. At the start of ww2 from what I can read some P14s at least were "re-engineered" for sniper use using stored ww1 scopes until the no4 mk1T was available with its new scope. However I could quite believe that second or third line troops could have been handed anything that shoots. eg my maternal grandfather was in the home guard and actually used his own shotgun. He didnt mind apparantly as nights out patroling the local beaches allowed him to knab rabbits and put meat on the household table. So I guess 6 Ross's sitting in OZ somehow with scopes and handed to rear line troops is possible.....

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

[QUOTE=8><----It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.
.[/QUOTE]

Ive seen a few Ross's in auctions now, seem to average about 2 per auction, ex mil ones and not sporters, Id guess they were brought home from ww1...

[green]

"Australian Service Longarms" lists such arms as the M1873 Winchester and Johnson M1941 but no mention of Ross rifles.

[Surpmil]

According to documents examined by Clive Law, after Dunkirk an urgent request was made to Canada for Ross rifles fitted with scopes. The reply was sent back that there were none available. Obviously the reputation of the Ross for accuracy was remembered, even it if always denigrated officially as a service rifle. The same book "Without Warning" documents how the remaining WWI Ross/Warner & Swasey units were used for training in Canada for several years, presumably until sufficient No4(T)s became available; that is except for either 80 or 150 presumably loose W&S scopes which were taken to the UK by the 1st Canadian Division and fitted to P14s. Seems doubtful that any would have made it to the SW Pacific unless they did so after 1943, as we know the P14 W&S was still in service with the Canadians in Italy that year. However, it is possible that rifles became available as the No4(T) replaced them in Canadian units I suppose. Whether anyone would have taken the trouble to send them out to New Guinea I don't know, but I rather doubt it. Still, someone took the trouble to send some Alex Martin P14s to the Med in 1941 where Tom Barker was issued one on his way to Crete, and no one else in his battalion was, so one never knows!

There is another account in a book called "Not as a Duty Only" by an Australian officer on loan to a British regiment in NW Europe in 1944 in which he mentions two snipers in his regiment using "Canadian Ross rifles" and taking out a German officer at 1000 yards as measured by range finder. I suspect these were P14s, but we may never know for sure.

If anyone in Australia can track down the author who name I forget, they might be able to nail down the story. I wrote years and years ago to the publisher but never got a reply.

[Paul S.]

One thought that crosses my mind is whether a number of Ross rifles may have been sold off and exported to Australia as range or hunting rifles during the interwar years. If they had, isn't it possible that a number of them may have been 'volunteered' for service as were numbers of heavy barrel SMLE range rifles?

[Surpmil]

I suppose anything is possible but with all those H barrel SMLE's on hand, why complicate things with a logistically unsupportable rifle?

Hopefully the OP will come back with the results of his further conversation with the vet concerned.

[Paul S.]

I suppose anything is possible but with all those H barrel SMLE's on hand, why complicate things with a logistically unsupportable rifle? ...

Desperate times called for desperate measures?

[martins8589]

You should ask more questions such as "where was the scope mounted: overhead or offset", "was the bolt different from the Lee Enfield in any way?" (not giving away the straight pull aspect ;-) )

I've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of confusion between the P14 and the Ross in the minds of many soldiers. Tom Barker, whose memoirs "Sniper on Crete" are online, was also told that his rifle was a Ross. I corresponded with him and we determined from the features that he could definitely remember, that his rifle was an Alex Martin converted P14 with an offset scope, probably an Aldis No2 or No3. He also told me where he put it before he was ordered to surrender, so one day I shall visit that part of Crete!

It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.

One has to remember that 99.9999% of soldiers are not firearms enthusiasts: a rifle is just a tool to them and they remember only the most distinctive features as most people would. In the case of the Ross and P14 that is the one piece stock and the projecting barrel.

The straight pull is the kicker though.

Ask him if he or any of his former mates have any photos showing their rifles.

I have both a Ross MKIII and a P14. The P14 is by way far the kicker. My 13yo shoots the Ross with no recoil problems but avoids tha P14 like the plauge.