Questions on my 91/24 Carbine

[DallasMosin]

I picked up a Terni Carcano a while back, not exactly knowing what it was to begin with... but have since found that it is a 1891/24 Carbine conversion. Converted in 1925, and the Stock is stamped 1933 w/ the correct Serial Number.

Most Terni Rifles I have seen have a date, then Terni - i.e., "1917 TERNI"

Mine has NO Date. The S/N is NL5407. It is an even 17" long barrel (not 17.7"). Can anyone help me with a Date and an approximate value? It really has some interesting markings. I have pics here:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=5f5b5acc04

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[Aragorn243]

Your rifle does have a date, it's obscured by the re-work mark. It was made in 1895, 1905, or 1915. You can see the 5.

You probably need to clean out the sling swivel area on the stock, I've never seen that before but research it first to make sure but I can't see why the Italian military would have done it.

As for value. Hard to say. Carcano's don't typically bring much these day's. It is common to get nice examples for less than $200 and I have gotten two very nice Type 38's for around $150. The 91/24's are a rework of a worn out rifle and were made in large numbers so I doubt it has a high collector factor to it.

[Patrick Chadwick]

For me, something more interesting than the date is the marking on the left side of the knoxform, just above the wood (2nd row, 2nd pic in your photo collection).

The stylized target above crossed rifles shows that the rifle was selected for accuracy (as a target or sniper rifle). Presumably this was in its original M91 configuration, not as a cut-down carbine!

The first 91/24s were made by Terni in 1925, simply by cutting off the front end of the M91 barrel to shorten it. The new muzzle end had to be turned down to accept the foresight ring, and this was also secured by a grub screw. However, since the M91 Carcano barrel had a progressive twist, this meant that the faster portion of the rifling had been lost. The result was very poor ballistic performance, the twist at the cut-down muzzle being quite simply too slow. Later M91/24s were made by cutting of the back end of the barrel and inserting the barrel into a sleeve section that provided the proper chamber and diameter to fit the action body.

Take a close look at the muzzle end of your M91/24. You may have one of the early cut-downs, in which case you need not expect great performance from it! Since a target/sniper rifle was sacrificed for the conversion, one may presume that it was no longer up to the standard expected of a rifle originally selected for accuracy.

[DallasMosin]

Upon closer inspection, I believe that it is a "15" that is hidden under the "Fare 25 Terni" stamp. So, I would say that it was made in 1915.

I found some good explanations:

"Tiro a Segno Nazionale (Two crossed rifles superimposing a bullseye target stamped on barrel or stock).
The significance of this oft-encountered mark is still not totally cleared up. It is quite certain, however, that this was neither a unit mark denoting actual sniper usage, nor a sign for "prize guns" in shooting competitions (as was the case with some Fucili Vetterli M 1870, which were not serial numbered, bore the same sign, and were given as prizes to the winners - thence the tradition is derived). Nor can one assume that all those many rifles (and cavalry carbines) were used by sharpshooters; rather, they may have been the pool from which proper snipers (tiratori scelti), as well as any unit's "good shots" could select their guns."

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Itali...tification.htm

Some of the other Marks that see clearly are the "SG" in a circle to the left of the crossed rifles... I can't make out the stamp to the right. There is an "AG" stamped on the Right side of the barrell. There are MULTIPLE numbers and marks underneath the Rear Sight.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------

The ONE thing that baffles me is the barrell LENGTH.... It is an even 17"... and all the 91TS or 91/24 Models are listed as being 17.7" (45cm) Long.

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

From the Table I see... the closest thing is that it is a 91 Cav. - and not a 91/24, really...

[Aragorn243]

Barrel length may include the portion screwed into the receiver. The full length of the rifle should be 36 1/4 inches.

[DallasMosin]

I bet you are right!!! The full length is just over 36".

[Patrick Chadwick]

The usual measurement is from the muzzle to the bolt face. So it does not matter how deep the barrel is screwed into the action body.

Simply close the bolt and push a dowel rod or cleaning rod down the barrel until it touches the bolt face. Mark the point where the rod emerges at the muzzle. Remove rod and measure. Easy, when you know what you want to measure.

[DocAV]

TSN Tiro a Segno Nazionale ==National Target Shooting (Association).

In Italy ( as in many other countries) Reservists and private citizens could and did shoot regularly at Target Ranges ( usually fully brick-wall enclosed, up to 300 metres range) with their own or Gov't (TSN) supplied Rifles. The TSN marking simply indicated that the Rifle concerned had the necessary Accuracy for such use.

The TSN mark had no "sniper" (tiratori scelti..selected shooters) or "Cecchino" ( WW I Nickname for a sniper) connotations...simply that as a result of this mark, the rifles were more than likely issued to unit marksmen...Scope-sighted Rifles were extremely rare in Italian official use in both WW I and II ( even if Terni did make some M91 Scoped rifles in WW I)...any scoped sniper use was mostly "private purchase" Hunting rifles ( officers) or "Captured") Austrian M95s with scopes (actual front line use.).

Most of the old TSN ranges these days have been demolished because of Urban sprawl, but some do survive, and are used by Local Gun clubs. The Old (Italian) TSN would have been the equivalent of the NRA in the pre-WW II days... but Gov't. supported and controlled as part of the National Defence.

Regards,
Doc AV