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    Legacy Member Maple_Leaf_Eh's Avatar
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    Non Enfield but British post war military related

    A collector acquaintance is rebuilding an Alvis Mk6 Saracen armoured car. It was a Mk3 contracted to Libya, which was not delivered but taken on strength by the Britishicon Army for Northern Ireland. The main change was an extra 16mm of armour plated welded all over. Many of the welds are embarrassingly crude. For instance, inside the turret the welds have a decent puddle. But on the outside and around the hinges, it looks like the icing on a cupcake with bubbles and little piles, or porous gaps and voids.

    Is there anyone on the forum with experience around British Army Workshops or Depots who could comment on the modification process? Whether the work would have been done by apprentices or skilled tradesman, what sort of time pressures would have been on the job, what working conditions would have been, rejection or refusal practises, etc?
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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Outside contractor unfamiliar with welding armour plate?
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    Most of these modifications of the period were done at Army Base Workshops throughout Britainicon and Northern Ireland on a PDQ basis too! The fact that your pals Saracen has survived its life in NI is probably testament to the fact that although the welds were a tad rough, the vehicle survived some 30 years of action there and as Gil, Tankie et al will confirm, many other vehiclkes barely managed.

    If I was your mate, I'd just grind them smooth and let the people who see it, see it for what it is AND done and where it's been!

    What is the UK registration number if it's still there. It should also be on a plate to the left of the driver too. It'll be something like 12 EA 34 (or any of the EA EB C D E F range if it's a later contract one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maple_Leaf_Eh View Post
    A collector acquaintance is rebuilding an Alvis Mk6 Saracen armoured car. It was a Mk3 contracted to Libya, which was not delivered but taken on strength by the Britishicon Army for Northern Ireland. The main change was an extra 16mm of armour plated welded all over. Many of the welds are embarrassingly crude. For instance, inside the turret the welds have a decent puddle. But on the outside and around the hinges, it looks like the icing on a cupcake with bubbles and little piles, or porous gaps and voids.

    Is there anyone on the forum with experience around British Army Workshops or Depots who could comment on the modification process? Whether the work would have been done by apprentices or skilled tradesman, what sort of time pressures would have been on the job, what working conditions would have been, rejection or refusal practises, etc?

    Two of my oldest brothers worked on them on a daily basis (plus a lot other military vehicles), I,ll be seeing one of them later and will ask him.

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    Can you get a picture of your friends Saracen Maple Leaf to ad to the forum here. We had a Saracen identified with 6" wide yellow and black stripes during the trials of the Canadianicon type buffered GPMG mount/tripod vs the Vickers Mk4B tripod to see whether the buffered tripod was reliable enough to be used in the overhead fire role, albeit flexible. During the live firing trials of the GPMG's on their buffered tripods the Saracen would drive into the dead ground then into the 'orange' area to see/confirm whether the buffering was permitting shots to drop low and endanger troops. Also to confirm any other doubts. A few stray bullets would ping the Saracen but nothing that it wasn't getting in Aden at the time and later in The Creggan and Falls Road.

    While the buffered mount was 'flexible' it was only flexible in the fore-and- aft mode BUT the metallastic bushes in the elevating mech gave cause for concern. These were manufactured from a stiffer rubber and those trials sealed the final fate of the mighty Vickers MMG. Within a year or two the spec for the GPMG in the overhead fire (OHF) role was laid down and the last OHF Vickers were withdrawn. The very last in Malaya/Borneo in the Summer of '68

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    Legacy Member Maple_Leaf_Eh's Avatar
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    The Saracen is on wooden blocks at the moment in the corner of the workshop. It sat outdoors for decades, and water got between the add-on plates and the hull armour. It froze and thawed repeated. The result was a lot of warpage, scale and rust over the roof. The seals gave way and the interior filled up with water until it found a proper drain hole. So, the rebuild work has been slow and methodical. All the wheel stations are off, and the straight 8 engine is on a pallet. The turret is a little hexagon shaped affair, with the hatch across the backside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maple_Leaf_Eh View Post
    Is there anyone on the forum with experience around Britishicon Army Workshops or Depots who could comment on the modification process? Whether the work would have been done by apprentices or skilled tradesman, what sort of time pressures would have been on the job, what working conditions would have been, rejection or refusal practises, etc?
    Spoke to my brother before who worked at Deysbrook Barracks, this was a REME Command workshop and all the workforce were civilians even the Armourers , although he worked mainly on tracked vehicles, he did say the Welders (only two) were professionals so the welds would of been good quality.

    Regarding the Saracen he seems to recall my oldest Brother worked a lot on them were they were base overhauled, stripped to the hull (will contact him shortly as he is not that local anymore) he does recall an up armour upgrade to the "Pigs" that were brought out of mothballs and destined for NI, he was quite sure they were all done at Deysbrook.

    If the Sarcen did go through a Base O/H then it would have some of the info stated on or next to the makers/chassis plate, its possible the welds could be a quick temp repair, but if it did go through a base O/H then these would of been re welded etc.

    I,ve posted the pic before, but this is whats there now the original site was huge until after WW2 were some of it was sold off, and then the rest was gradually sold to land developers.



    Last edited by bigduke6; 11-09-2013 at 08:51 AM.

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    They were also totally rebuilt at 27 Command Workshop at Warminster and 18 Command at Bovington in Dorset. I know at Warminster (Saladin, Centurions and Saracens) they were stripped to what we used to call 'the boat' (the stripped bare hull). In the early 70's some were used as hard targets at Castlemartin ranges. I remember steering one out on the range beinbg towed by a Centurion ARV. I stuck it in gear, switched it on and bump started it! Took up the slack, told the ARV crew to unhitch the towing hawser and off I went up to the target area. Parked it up on the target area and came back for another in the ARV!

    There were still Churchill, Dingo and Weasel amphibians out there as hard targets and one of the recovery mechanics took the propellor off one of the old DUKW target hulks

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    When I mentioned they were all done at Deysbrook I was meaning the upgrade of the Pigs.

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    Ah, the pig was what we called the old Humber 4wheel drive sort of Saracen look-a-like thinggy. They were the most unwieldly thing to drive that ever took to the roads! Turning circle of a ship too so it was easy to get caught if you were trying to get out of a tight squeeze..... the Creggan was pretty tight! Mind you, the drivers know all these foibles. The one that replaced the Humber Pig was a 4 wheel drive armoured lorry....... er .... I forget the name now, built by Sankey. Top heavy and handled like a stuck pig!

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