Possible lend lease

[browningautorifle]

Joe said it about the safest way. There's no way for someone like me who didn't deal with the import of the LL rifles to say it's an LL for sure. The number makes it desirable though in that area...it's right in the block of the LL.

[Bob Seijas]

I am following the thread, Joe, and you answered it perfectly. My rationale is that when Sam Cummings bought the original lot of LL guns, he had them proofed in the chamber area to make the proofs less obvious. Collectors back then hated non-standard marks and he knew it would hurt their value (it did). After the success of the initial deal, he scoured Europe for Garands and imported a lot of them. They all came through his warehouse in Manchester no matter where they were found, so had to get proofed. It was far easier to mark them up front on the barrel, and later imports got stamped there. Were some LL? Probably, unless he got all 38,001 on the first shot. Were some from other sources? For sure, we gave the Free French 300,000 and never got a one back. My point has always been that you can't be absolutely certain they were LL if they are not marked in the date area as the original first lot was.

However, I have also felt that putting a big premium on LL guns is pretty thin justification. The attraction to the LL guns was their superb condition and pre-war manufacture. That was worth a premium, because after the war it was hard to find an unused M1, especially an early one. So the gun has to stand on it's own.

[Bob K]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.

[ROCK]

That's a beautiful rifle. I wouldn't do anything to it. It's an original and I would overlook the screw holes. Could always use the holes to make a replica M1C if looking at them was bothersome.

[Redleg]

Here are two, not stamped with Brit Proofs over the chamber area.

The first is a 687xxx SA with 6-42 bbl.
Brit proof stamped on the top of the bbl at the front, but NO crown stamp on bolt or receiver.

The 2nd is a 325xxx with 8-41 bbl. It is stamped with Brit Proofs on the side of the bbl at the front. The receiver and bolt are both stamped with the crown on the 325xxx.





Attachment 48032Attachment 48033Attachment 48034

[Redleg]

Supposition/question.......... when the garands came back from England, not necessarily LL---is it possible that the first imports were stamped at the muzzle end initially, and that became objectionable, so Cummings then had the succeeding bunch stamped at the Chamber to make them more acceptable?

LL can obviously only fall in a certain serial #range, and the rest may just be interesting guns. Mine many just be interesting guns in ex condition.

[browningautorifle]

Supposition/question

Read post #22. This is his first hand knowledge.

[DocAV]

The Distribution of the screw holes reminds me of the mointing screws used on the M1 C sniper equipment.

The proof marks ( barrel) etc are British Commercial proofs ( ie, the rifle passed "in trade" through the UK after it was surplussed from anywhere in the world) Nothing to do with "Lend Lease"
AFAIK, The US did not "Lend Lease" any M1 Rifles during WW II, but did "Military Aid" a lot of countries AFTER WW II. A small batch of M1s were used by Canadians ( at Dieppe) and reportedly a few were "Trialled" during WW II by British units ( ?Royal Marine Commandos?)
but it seems these did not come under formal "Lend Lease" arrangements.

Before writing off the screw holes as "Bubba" I would check the M1C screw hole arrangement to see if this is correct. Complete M1Cs are like hens teeth....Probably nearly all were dismantled when the M1 D (Barrel Mounted scope) camne into service.

Doc AV ( I have an M1D, but not an M1C....)

Down Under.

[Bob Seijas]

The guns we sent to Britain were loaned to them under a formal Lend Lease Act by which Roosevelt was able to get around our neutrality laws. We sent some old Destroyers under it, too. Britain was woefully short of rifles after leaving so many at Dunkirk, and they were under threat of imminent invasion. Nobody else qualified under the Act because they had all been overrun and Russia was allied with Germany at the time. Pearl Harbor ended our neutrality, and the act was repealed in the spring of 1942. We did provide M1s to others after that but it was not under Lend Lease.

As to how they were marked, the Interarms deal was the first importation I can recall. All those I ever saw at the time were marked in the chamber area, never saw one marked up front until much later. BTW, the Brits were supposed to give them back when they were no longer needed, but they sold them to Sam Cummings. Nobody cared about them at the time so no objections were made.

[Johnny Peppers]

The Lend-Lease Act gave the President virtually unlimited power to send weapons, food, ships, and anything that would aid our allies. While the term Lend-Lease sounded good, he could loan, give, trade, or whatever he deemed appropriate to get aid to our allies. Some of the L-L material was traded for harbor space and facilities. It was much more than sending small arms.

As military rifles the M1's did not have to be proofed when they reached England, but before they could be sold commercially they had to go through one of the British proof houses. This was British law on any weapon that came from a country that did not have a reciprocal proof law with England, which the US did not. All the British proofed L-L M1 rifles I have seen have been proofed under the requirements of the 1955 Proof Act. I have one with the chamber proofs, and one with the barrel proofs. The barrel proofed rifle was proofed in 1960, but can't quite make out the letter for the date on the chamber mark.

The Lend-Lease Act was in effect until cancelled by President Truman in September of 1945. Some that received L-L aid were the British Empire, Canada, China, French Forces, Russia, and some of the American Republics. The U.S was still sending 1911A1 pistols to England in 1945. As with the L-L rifles, most of these came back in new condition.