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Thread: Looking for help to ID a rifle I just inherited (1917?).

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  1. #1
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    Looking for help to ID a rifle I just inherited (1917?).

    It looks custom with a 1917 action.
    The family thought it is a Winchester 30-06, but no Winchester markings at all.

    The iron sights have been removed and it’s been tapped for a scope mount.
    I removed the scope mounts but can’t find a single marking anywhere on the action, bolt, barrel or stock. No manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number.

    Everything has been polished but I see no evidence that anything was ground off. Where I have seen manufacturer marking on other 1917's is just bare metal on this rifle.

    I was told by a number of people not to worry about it.
    The owner of the gun told me it was his grandfather’s and too old to need to be registered, but as far as I know that’s not true.

    My main concern is I want to register it so it is completely legal and I will probably want sell it, so I assume it would need a serial number.

    Any thought on what this model is, the value and where to find the serial number or any ID markings?

    Tnx.

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    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    It looks like a heavily "fancified" Remington Model 30. These were made post-WW1 on M1917 actions. There were several variants as time went by and military parts were replaced by newly made components. One of these variations was an alteration of the bolt to cock-on-opening, which may be what you have there. BTW, these rifles were made in other calibers beside 30-06. DO NOT ASSUME IT IS IN 30-06. HAVE IT CHECKED.

    Quote Originally Posted by evo2 View Post
    The owner of the gun told me it was his grandfather’s and too old to need to be registered

    That depends on the law of the state in which you live. If not true, it would be a ground for returning the rifle as being falsely described (in this case, with legal implications). As far as I know, US licensing relaxations for "antiques" only apply to items manufactured before 1898, and this rifle is definitely post-1918. It is no antique in the sense of firearms legislation.

    The fact that you have not found a number and mark of origin anywhere is very troubling, as in most legislations this is quite simply illegal. I suggest that you remove the barrelled system from the stock, and if there is no identification and number visible beneath the woodwork, my personal recommendation would be to return the rifle to avoid possible legal complications. No doubt the seller will back-pedal on the grandfather story, but he cannot compel you to accept goods that contravene the law - if that is indeed the case.

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    Legacy Member Randy A's Avatar
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    Remington Model 30s were continued Remington production post WW1, not modified 1917s, but your bolt sleeve is aftermarket or custom, not Mod 30. I very confident that your rifle is a sportered 1917. I would need better pictures of the action and bolt to tell you, but Rem 30 had a guide protrusion from the bolt body that ran in a matching cut in the rear action bridge. Remington 30s were very beautiful rifles and did not need to be "cleaned up", 1917s on the other hand.....
    If I'm reading your post information correctly you live in the US, there are no laws "anywhere" requiring the "registration" of your rifle.
    Now on the other hand, if your rifle is void of any and all marking then yes, it is illegal to do that to a firearm. Someone has definitely removed the serial number. As said earlier, pull it from the stock to see what you can find.
    I will send you a PM.
    Last edited by Randy A; 02-01-2014 at 11:54 PM.

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    Legacy Member Calif-Steve's Avatar
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    Actually the Rem Mod 30's were all made from left-over M1917 parts. Remington had so many parts thet the Army didn't want that Remington made the Mod 30 for over 20 years. Remember, the Great Depression hit in 1929 and it stopped almost all new rifle purchases for 10 years. So Remington was stuck with the Mod 30 until WWII came along.

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    I have two Rem 30s, (I would guess around 1930 or 31) there are several features that are different from them and the P14 and 1917. Several parts do not interchange. Mine are 30 Express and I do know the rear bridge (boltway) and bolt body are different. I know they used many WW1 parts, but was under the impression that the actions were new post war manufacture.
    They are very nice looking rifles, I always had a fondness for them. You don't see many around. At least not up here.

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    Legacy Member Calif-Steve's Avatar
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    No, all Mod 30's were M1917 parts. Remington got stuck with piles of fully finished rifles, partial finished parts and piles of raw forgings. They did whatever it took to sell a rifle. The Remington forge shop was silent for nearly 20 years. In 1940(?) the Brits started the forge shop up again when they began buying M1903 rifles. Closed down in 1919 and not re-opened until the M1903 contract.

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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    You need to check YOUR states gun registration laws. Contrary to the above information, some states do indeed require registration and/or transfer paperwork for firearms. Massachusetts is one of the worst in this regard. It is not too "old" under Federal firearms laws as it was made after 1898. The lack of a serial number is a serious issue as it originally had one and someone removed it. This is illegal under Federal law. There are probably corrective measures for doing all of this but I don't envy you living in Massachusetts in doing so.

    I did a quick review and second I'm glad I don't live in MA. Looks like you need a license just to own a firearm first. Not sure how that has survived Constitutional review. All sorts of classes you have to attend to get a license, etc and they are not cheap. I had a buddy that talked guns a while back that lived in MA. He was into "Cowboy" style shooting and used to complain all the time about the hoops they have to jump through.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.
    Last edited by Aragorn243; 02-17-2014 at 03:16 PM.

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    Remington 30 Actions
    I agree with Calif-Steve. The Remington 30 Receiver was made from a M1917 receiver. The rear sight “ears” were milled off and the bridge was reshaped. I built a target rifle built on a Remington M1917 and it looked exactly like the rear bridge on the Remington 30 except that I did not mill the top of the bridge flat as with the 30. If you look very carefully at the top of the 30S rear Receiver Bridge, about ½ inches behind the clip slots you can see where Rear Sight Base Spring Screw hole has been drilled and filled. The front and rear bridges were “stippled”. I have in hand, two Model 30’s and can detect this on both receivers. The receivers were modified to accommodate a bolt rib similar to the one used on the GEWicon 98 Mauser. The bolt had an added rib.
    The early Remington 30’s were “cock on close” as in the M1917, but no one liked this feature so the later 30’s and 30 Expresses were converted to “cock on opening”. It is a relatively simple operation to convert the M1917 bolt cocking cam to this configuration by a skilled gunsmith. Roy Dunlap in his book GUNSMITHING describes the operation. Either the original cocking pieces can be altered or a new cocking piece can be manufactured. I do not know which method Remington used-maybe both. The rib on the bolt is a separate piece and is inserted into a slot milled into the bolt.
    The shape of the bolt stop was modified and I believe that the ejector was fitted with a coil spring. This is a simple operation and can be accomplished with nothing ore that a good file.
    I do not know when your rifle was built, but prior to the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934, it was quite common practice to remove arsenal markings and serial numbers from converted 03’s and M1917’s. See E.C. Crossman’s Book of the Springfield. I do not know how these were handled after the passage of the ACT.
    FWIW

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    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo2 View Post
    My main concern is I want to register it so it is completely legal and I will probably want sell it

    The comments up to now confirm my cautions. If anyone is obliged to correct its legal status, it is the seller. Don't be suckered into taking on the seller's legal responsibility! As soon as that weapon is in your possession YOU are the one with the responsibility - and the liability.

    And the first reaction of any authority when presented with a gun where the serial number has been removed will be to suspect that it has been stolen and/or used for criminal purposes, and to look at you as if you might be the person responsible. In Germanyicon this would lead to a formal criminal investigation, even if you are the Pope's white-haired old granny and never held a gun in your life. It sounds as if Massachusetts might be somewhat similar in this respect. Sorry to be a party-pooper, but I would earnestly advise you to forget the whole business.

    "... but prior to the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934, it was quite common practice to remove arsenal markings and serial numbers from converted 03’s and M1917’s. See E.C. Crossman’s Book of the Springfield. I do not know how these were handled after the passage of the ACT."

    You can bet your firearms licence that either in the act as passed in 1934 or in the 1968 revision (which is supposed to have tightened up some loopholes) there will be a paragraph that requires that all firearms changing hands after passage of the act must meet the new requirements thereof.
    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 02-18-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: typos

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