SA Installed Lyman 48 Sights

[Tom Jackson]

I was looking at an earlier thread concerning factory installed Lyman 48 sights on 1903/1903A1 NM rifles. I have actively collected 1903s for at least 30 years and have been associated with Rock Island Auction Company (RIAC) for the last 20 years. I have seen a lot of M1903 rifles. During that time I have only seen two or three M1903 NM rifles that appeared to be factory drilled and tapped for a Lyman 48 but did not have the stock inletted for a sight. I have seen numerous rifles fitted with Lyman 48 sights. However, the only rifles in which the the sight installation and stock inletting appeared to match the work done on M1922, M1 and M2 .22 rifles were a few very early production (1921/22) NM rifles and two papered B stock NM rifles. Every one of the 1921/22 NM rifles was fitted with a Lyman 48 Long Slide sight. These sights are appropriate for 1922/1922 production rifles since the short slide Lyman 48B was not introduced until sometime in 1921 and may not have been available. I wonder if the Lyman 48 Long Slide sights were installed by SA armorers at Camp Perry during the National Matches on new rifles purchased at the matches. It seems significant that properly installed Lyman 48 sights do not seem to show up on later production NM rifles. I am familiar with the DCM/SA sales information but I have never seen a M1903/M1903A1 NM rifle with documented drilled and tapped receiver or Armory installed Lyman 48 sight. The only rifles that appeared to have SA quality installations were the two B stock NMs and the five or six 1921/22 production NM rifles with long slide 48s. Does anyone else have any different observations?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Badger]

Did you type the phrase lyman 48 sight in the Milsurps Search Box, located in the top right corner of the site?

There are dozens of threads on the subject, so perhaps the one you're looking for is there....

Regards,
Doug

[Tom Jackson]

I posted the comment to see if anyone else on the board had similar or different observations on NM 1903s with Lyman 48 sights.

[Lt1]

My observation regarding the stock inletting for 48 sights .The half circle notch & pick prick holes next to the notch I have only seen on M2 trainers .It appears later stocks with 48 sights added are not inletted in such a manner . .One would think SA would use the same fixture & care on later rifles as the earlier stocks . Hershel or Rick should have seen more examples or 48 sights .

[Herschel]

SA drilling and tapping 1903 NM rifles for Lyman 48 receiver sights is documented in two reference books.

In the '03 Springfield Rifles' Era by Clark Campbell on page 65 he says "Because of the Armory's charge for drilling and tapping an already heat-treated receiver would be prohibitively expensive for a civilian wanting his own familiar rifle for the Service Rifle events but needing to be able to use it also for NRA matches, Springfield, in mid-November 1924, began drilling and tapping, during manufacture, all National Match rifles produced for DCM sales. But they did not, of course, cut the stocks for the Lyman receiver sight unless it was purchased with the rifle."

In The Springfield 1903 Rifles by William S. Brophy, on page 202, in a section entitled National Match Rifle, "Style B" can be found "This is a military type pistol grip stock with no grasping grooves. It is made of black walnut. It has an NM barrel, is targeted, and the receiver is drilled and tapped for Lyman sight. This rifle is manufactured for sales only."

It seems to me that some of the rifles "produced for DCM sale" might not have been sold. If they were not sold they would surely be used for military issue.

[Tom Jackson]

There may be references to SA drilling and tapping 1903 NM rifles for Lyman 48 sights but those references are not supported by the rifles I have seen. I have personally looked at hundreds of 1903 rifles over the last 30 years including many, many documented DCM sales NM rifles. I am reasonably certain that I have not seen ANY post 1924 NM rifles that were armory drilled and tapped other than TWO papered 1924 NM B rifles. The questions are: (1) Did SA produce ANY factory drilled and tapped 1903/1903A1 rifles? (2) The 1921/1922 period 1903 NM rifles with Lyman 48 Long Slide sights appear to be the ONLY NM rifles with armory installed Lyman 48 sights - were these rifles done by SA or by SA armory personnel at Camp Perry? Over the years I have seen hundreds of original 1903 rifles but I have not been able to pin this down. This is complicated by the fact that there are no DCM sales records for most of the rifles sold by DCM prior to about 1923.

[Herschel]

In the case of Clark Campbell's source of information he cites a Chief of Ordnance document dated 15 Nov. 1924.
In Brophy he shows his source to be the DCM item in the American Rifleman from July 15, 1926.

[Tom Jackson]

I am familiar with Campbell and Brophy and the DCM information. Campbell's and Brohpy's works are out-of-date and there are no other good references on 1903/1903A1 NM rifles. My point is that the configuration of the rifles typically seen in collections does not support the published information. Few DCM sales NM rifles appear to have been armory drilled and tapped. Most of the rifles I have seen that are drilled and tapped were clearly not armory work. There is a disconnect between what the published sources say and what actually exists. Reiterating statements from Brophy, Campbell or the DCM does not explain why the only NM rifles that appear to be arsenal fitted with Lyman 48 sights are all early 1921/22 pieces and the almost total absence of post 1922 NM rifles that are factory drilled and tapped or actually armory fitted with a Lyman 48. I consider myself a serious 1903 collector; I have searched for a 1903 NM rifle that is either documented as drilled and tapped or armory fitted with a Lyman 48 and I have never seen one. I would like to know if other collectors have similar or different insights based on their experience.

[Herschel]

Tom,

My collecting interest is limited to the 1922 Series .22's and the 1903 NRA Sporters. I don't hold myself out to be an expert in them but at least can have a meaningful conversation with those that are expert. Even thought the issue type and NM 1903's are not my interest I have seen quite a few with the receiver drilled and tapped for the Lyman 48 sight. I would not be able to distinguish between SA drilling and tapping and aftermarket work. While I was competing in service rifle competition at Camp Perry, (1958-1967), there were armorers there from the Army Marksmanship Unit and from various Army areas that fielded teams. They did repairs on civilian competitor's rifles. Perhaps similar service was done for competitors in the 1903 rifle era but I have not knowledge as to whether or not that occurred. If I observe a 1903 receiver that is drilled and tapped for the Lyman 48 that looks like possibly arsenal work I will get the serial number and if possible get a photo of the holes. Good luck on your effort to get more and better information about the 1903 NM rifles.

[Tom Jackson]

Thanks Herschel. I would really like to pin down the facts on armory drilled and tapped NM rifles. I would very much like to have a "S" or C" stock NM rifle that could be documented as drilled and tapped. In 30 years of collecting I have not seen any but maybe I have just not been in the right place at the right time. I would like to find a DCM documented and excellent 1903 National Match Special rifle; it is one of the key pieces I need for my collection.