French Gras question

[Aragorn243]

I found a French Gras M80 this afternoon that looked pretty nice with the exception of a hole drilled into the right side of the butt stock. The hole is about half an inch deep and 3/8ths of an inch across.

I came home and looked up photos of these and found this hole in quite a few of them although it has been plugged in most of them.

It's a bit early for me but I am thinking about it. Anyone know the significance of the hole? It appears to be drilled in the center of a round cartouche although the other side has a complete cartouche on it. Numbers seem to match with the exception of the bolt.

Ok, I learned this is a "Holy Water" plug hole. Possibly indicates it was in Russian service. The rifle stock did have what appeared to be imperial or crown stampings that did not look French to me. It's missing the plug however.

And now I learned the "Holy Water" plug story is a myth. It was a device used to differentiate a military rifle from a civilian rifle. No civilian was permitted to own a military rifle and if it had this hole/plug, it was obviously military.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[jmoore]

Photos? And which country added the hole?

[Aragorn243]

If you search for French Gras holy water plug you should come up with a few images. It is French. A post from another forum answering what it is:

"The boxwood pin found inserted in the stock of French military rifles is an identification mark dating form the 17th century, and had nothing to do with religion, if that was the case it would have been discontinued in 1789! and all military rifles built during the 1789/1815 period have the regular boxwood pin fitted.

It was totally forbidden then for a civilian to possess a military rifle, and the boxwood pin or a repair carried out at that location was a dead givaway on the military origin of a rifle, and replacing the stock of a muzzleloader was an expansive task, carried out only by specialist craftsmen.

The hard boxwood pin acted also as a protection for the circular reception stamp.

The use of the boxwood pin was discontinued in 1886. No Lebel rifle had the pin fitted."

[Aragorn243]

I thought about it, came to the conclusion that I have an addiction and needed a fix. Called them up and it was gone. Had a funny feeling about it however and went up the next day anyway and sure enough, it was on the rack. It was a Cabela's rifle so I used points and a couple of gift cards and brought it home for less than $55 out of pocket. I love Cabela's.

It is an 1866/74/80 with an excellent but obviously dusty bore after taking the photos. All numbers match, even the cleaning rod. It is missing it's extractor which is the only drawback other than the missing plug I can find. Came with a Gras bayonet which doesn't match but is in excellent shape. All kinds of "crown" stamps in the stock. No one has ammo at the moment and I'm still trying to decide if I want to shoot it bad enough to pay $85 for a box of 20. It does manage to fit into my WWI rifles as they were issued to reserve troops and used to shoot down blimps. Evidently the cartridge worked well as an incendiary round.

I really like this rifle. I have to get some ammo for it. I found some good photos of the extractor and I may try to fabricate one. Finding one for sale isn't going to be easy.

[jmoore]

Would have grabbed that one right quick myself!

[Patrick Chadwick]

Hallo Aragorn243!

I'm in Kiwiland at the moment, so what follows is out of the top of my head, as I cannot check with my books.
Your Mle 66/74/80 appears to be in excellent condition, with strong rifling right to the muzzle. I had one of these, before I found an original Chassepot, so I am wiring from experience. The trouble is ammo! Basically, you are either very rich or get creative with Win 348 cases. See this link:

http://jp.sedent.free.fr/UNE%20CARTO...SIL%20GRAS.htm

and the associated articles by Mr. Sedent.

The snag is that you do not have an "as built" Gras rifle, but a Chassepot (Mle 66) converted to take Gras center-fire cartridges (Mle 66/74). This was done by inserting a sleeved element in the Chassepot system, with a resulting "squeeze" section just in front of the Gras-sized chamber. The /80 modification was the pressure-relief groove milled out behind the chamber to handle burst cases in those early days of brass-drawing technology. The link above is worth studying to understand this, even if it it requires a bit of patience and a good dictionary!

The squeeze means that the nominally 11 point something mm bullets are squeezed down to 10 point something mm and then bump up (we hope!) to fill the bore. This means that YOU MUST ONLY USE SOFT LEAD BULLETS !!!!. (max 3% tin). Harder lead will fail to bump up and will produce lousy results. As for jacketed bullets - your life insurance would advise against it! DO NOT EVEN TRY JACKETED BULLETS.

P.S. Your bayonet is the Gras bayonet. The orginal Chassepot bayonet was a yatagan type.

[Aragorn243]

Patrick,

I read about the squeeze but thought that was in all Gras rifles, not just the conversions. Would the ammo produced by Buffalo Arms be suitable for mine?

I am also aware of the bayonet and am debating getting the other one but since it was converted to Gras I'm not in a huge hurry.

You wouldn't happen to know of any sources for an extractor over there in Europe by any chance would you?

[Aragorn243]

A new question. I'm assuming they stopped production of the 1866 Chassepot in 1874 when the 1874 was introduced. Most 1866's were upgraded to the new standard as Patrick pointed out with a new sleeve insert and bolt head. The barrel on mine is dated (if that is a date) 1875. I took the bolt out and looked into the chamber from the bore end and I don't see a constriction. The rifling is shallower than the chamber (the chamber is bigger than the bore). So my question is, was this rifle re-barreled rather than sleeved? It is an 1866 receiver without a doubt and it has been arsenal reworked. There is also an "S" 78 directly behind the 1875 mark. Would that mean that a barrel produced in 1875 was installed on the 1866 receiver in 1878. The stock is also dated 1878.

[jmoore]

I will look at mine and see if there's any shenanigans in the chamber/bore area. Have a Hawkeye borescope that might reveal something useful. Very similar rifle.

I always thought the jacketed incendiary rounds were for the big-bored Vickers. Did they do jacketed ball as well?

[Aragorn243]

Sorry the photo is so bad but I can't figure out how to take barrel photos.

What I'm hoping this shows is the two "steps" inside the chamber. The first step is the shoulder step and the second step is the rifling although that doesn't show at all in the photo, the step does, the rifling does not.



Each step appears to get smaller. There is no compression ring that I can see that makes the bullet smaller before it hits the rifling.