Bren Mk II mgfr '42, unfired until 2013??

[TactAdv]

Hi all!,
New to the forum, and new to BREN's in general, so go gently,,,,,and looking for a little help if possible with my first BREN acquisiiton. I just bought this Mk II gun, (for those off-shore to me here in the USA, it's a fully live firing MG here, although a bit restricted as classed as a "Dealer Sample" gun, still live and I intend to use it that way.....a LOT.)

Here's the link to the GunBroker auction, it probably wont be active too long, so you may want to look now.

Bren LMG post 86 dealer sample : Machine Guns at GunBroker.com


I am also attaching separately here, the actual pictures from the auction; until I get the gun transferred to me they are all I have to go on, so bear with me on that. ;-)

The gun was listed as being unfired since new, then only fired by the last owner for the first time in 2013?? Wow! From mfgr in 1942 to 2013....How is that even possible?? I was under the impression that the UK was desperate to get its hands on every BREN it possibly could in 1942....so how in Hell does a gun like this escape not only being caught up in the actual War needs at the time, but then also being stuck away somewhere for the next damn near 71 years?? How could this get by being used in the War, after being manufactured in '42.....a dark time for England to be sure. And do you have any idea where it might have sat for the next 70 years?? Who got unissued BRENs after the War?? ....Greece maybe??

To the gun pictured.....from Dugelby's Second Edition, I get the visible markings indicate it made in '42, on a Daimler/Monotype receiver (the impressed large 'D' marking). Seems to look like "as issued" condition, i.e., no updates or changes to anything resembling Mk IV or post-War goodies, etc. Point being, it does NOT look like a post-War FTR refinished gun, to my un-expert eyes???

The VISIBLE condition of the metal parts and wooden stock and grip.....go a long way toward having me guardedly believe the "unissued condition" story.....the metal just looks TOO CLEAN and smooth (i.e,, no dings, scratches, etc.) to be much less than "new"???

Anything else anyone can tell me about ANYTHING you see in these pictures here, would be GREATLY appreciated!!! I am not well versed in English stuff..... ;-O I am primarily interested in subtle nuances visible here that may support the claimed "unissued/un-fired" assertions of the auction verbage. It's a Century Intl import......so God only knows!!

Thanks in advance!
-TomH

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

Unissued and unfired from new.......... Listen, buy the gun and not the story and if you are going to try to convince yourself that it is an unissued and unfired, then get a half decent magnifier and have a look at the gas parts. Not just the obvious bits but the NOT so obvious bits!

[nzl1a1collector]

Its probably been to workshops before it was sold off and given the once over and re-phosphated. They all look new and unfired after going through a base workshops overhaul and the phosphating tank.

[tankhunter]

Its probably been to workshops before it was sold off and given the once over and re-phosphated. They all look new and unfired after going through a base workshops overhaul and the phosphating tank.

I agree TOTALY with your comment's nz1a1! I would say exactly the same! When any Smallarm has been through workshops for a complete overhaul & a re-Phospating. They ALL exit 'Looking' New to the untrained eye!........

I would stick my neck out & say, this gun is NOT 'Brand New, & Unfired' in My Opinion!....... I have overhauled many hundreds/ thousands of varying types of Small Arms & MGs during My Service Time. I have yet to see an 'Unfired, Brand New Bren'!................

But just SHOOT & enjoy your Bren when you get it! There's is nothing like turning live rounds into empty cases. On Full Auto!................LOL!

[Brian Dick]

My post sample L4A3 started it's career in 1942 as a Daimler Mk.II, the same as yours. It was converted in 1966 to L4 specification at Enfield and then FTR'd again by Interarms in the 1980's in anticipation of sale to a foreign government which never occurred. It looks pretty much new too but it certainly isn't unfired!!

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[Brit plumber]

I can say it's defo wasn't unfired. The Barrel is an Inglis replacement, the Daimler type has no key way for the locating peg found on an Inglis Mk2.

Still, not to put a downer on things, it's still a nice condition gun and if you intend to fire it, your one up than me! I don't think you will ever regret it, except for maybe the cost of ammo. You can put your other guns to bed for good once you've shot a Bren.

[Kev G]

As BP says regarding the barrel with the addition that the sliding butt group assembly is also Inglis (Canadian).

ATB KG

[Peter Laidler]

Tact ain't been back re his thread starter but reading his thing again, I think he's saying that he's lifted his thread pictures from somewhere and they aren't his gun but used to illustrate one that he's acquired. On that basis, some of our comments may be wrong. I could be barking up the wrong tree of course but..........

But I doubt that any of us will be wrong about his being a pristine UNfired example!

[TactAdv]

Tact ain't been back re his thread starter but reading his thing again, I think he's saying that he's lifted his thread pictures from somewhere and they aren't his gun but used to illustrate one that he's acquired. On that basis, some of our comments may be wrong. I could be barking up the wrong tree of course but..........

Hi Peter!,
Yes, you are precisely correct above; I just bought this gun from the GunBroker auction referenced in my initial post- the ONLY pictures I have to go by are those shown in the auction link, and that I also attached to my fist post here. Don't shoot the messenger!!

If you actually followed that auction link above, you'll see the statements about it being new were from the auction listing itself, I was questioning the same thing in my initial post, and came here with those pictures for some expert advice to add or detract from the assertion of newness claimed in the auction listing. I won't get the actual gun in my hands for a month or so, but when I do I will immediately post up a bunch of pictures, including all markings and mfgr marks and codes visible. THEN....we can go from some actual information.

My primary interest for a little support of the claim as to the gun being "new" had nothing to do with the finish, per se, but rather more about the condition of the metal and metal work it seems to show in the above pictures. The physical condition of the metal shown seems to advise that the gun and its parts have seen little exposure to service conditions and seems largely devoid of any scratches, dings, dents, or abusive treatments.....i,.e., it looks "new". Would be happy to hear any comments toward that light.......

Two helpful comments posted above-

"The Barrel is an Inglis replacement, the Daimler type has no key way for the locating peg found on an Inglis Mk2."

-and-

"......that the sliding butt group assembly is also Inglis (Canadian)"

THIS is the kind of supporting evidence that I was looking for! Things visible to Ya'lls eyes that I might not know about or catch on to......so, THANKS!!

(That said,,,,,pls educate me.....What gave away the fact that these are Inglis parts??)

The above two comments pretty much tell me what I need to know.....it's not all original Brit parts, so there we go. I am now more than ever inclined to question how this assemblage of mis-matched parts managed to not be beat up and show signs of use??

It's a Century Intl import.....so I guess I can go call George Samson and see what he can tell me about the serial number. He's pried open the books before for such a question.

(Peter- Thanks for your kind reply initially; Upon Herbie's kind invites, I have spent more hours than I care to remember bent over long tables and pull out drawers examining subtle nuances among markings and tooling marks on all manner of obscure ordnance at the old Pattern Room. Despite Richard's long suffering looks, I managed to learn quite an abundance of things, high quality optical magnifier in hand. I didn't even need aspirin tablets to bring up the markings like Dolf, my eyes aren't THAT old yet!

And, Yes, I do know what "new" really looks like- when that whack of unopened Sterling Mk IV's popped up here for sale again a year or so ago, as soon as one came in we immediately emailed a ton pictures directly to David Howroyd, who confirmed the pedigree of all the wrapping paper, taping, and packaging just as he remembered doing it. He even joked his fingerprints were probably all over it! So, yeah, I'm not mistaking "new" here with this Bren, just looking for some input based upon the pictures I supplied. Until I get the gun here, that's all I have to go on..... ;-) )

-TomH

[Kev G]

Tom,hope the pics below help to point out the difference between Monotype and Inglis ?

Barrels -


Sliding butt group/Lower -

Three pointers,machining to rear of the lower on Monotypes is MKI fashion with more material removed - marked in dark blue.
Machining to area by sear pin is different - marked in light blue.
UK F.Tibbenham butts have slips in the wrist of the butt,Inglis butts don't - marked in orange

ATB KG