No4t Cocking pieces, which is best.

[harlton]

I have often wondered,' noting' it said by several experts, the people who knew what they were doing when done, that when building up No4Tsniper rifles, they fitted the earlier/heavier button cocking pieces, much later than ever needed, instead of the regular fluted type.
That this was the way to go, is it still true today, or no longer necessary with better ammo. I was reading this in some back in the day information and one of the more common books on the subject.
I fully realise to get an accurate shot, or at least the best possible, the faster lock time you can achieve is preferable, so the heavier button type seems counter intuitive, from my perspective.
Although I have gone to the trouble of fitting the earlier button type, with the best finishes to my No4T just because it looks so right, I wonder, is it the best.
If I take both types of cocking pieces and polish and surface treat all parts, and then treat the slipways, so bolt, and pin internals are both the same, which bolt, should and will provide the best lock time, or was it best lock time and better combustion back in the day.
I'll Appreciate any answers. As I'm doing this, on two very similar rifles, it would be very interesting to have some others idea's on the answer. Thanks in advance if you choose to answer, and for your time.

Information

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[Thunderbox]

Question: why didn't the real experts - BSA and H&H, who actually built the rifles - fit button cocking pieces?


I'd be interested to see the data the OP experts compiled that proves there is any difference in performance between different types of cocking piece...


IMHO, its a military rifle and should therefore be rebuilt or restored to specification, and not to someone's benchrest novelty...

[Peter Laidler]

I admit to polishing the shaft of the striker but only to a) get rid of any imperfections and b) it was a simple matter to put the shaft in the lathe or pillar drill, spin it and polish. No other reason than that! As for the lock-time question, different weights of cocking piece and.......... Well, mathematically and physically there might be something but in the real world of the bleedin' obvious, then you would need scientifically accurate timing and weight instruments to............ And don't forget from your physics lessons at school and theory lessons when you were learning about kinetics that while a button c/p might be a tad heavier, it'll take LONGER to accellerate than the light one. And the mainspring weights are ....... and.........

Nope.......... I suggest that you fit your bolt exactly as we did on the bench Harlon and leave all the hypothesis to the nerds. Just my view of course, probably shared by one or two others I suspect!

[Bruce_in_Oz]

The whole exposed cocking piece was a hangover from the days of black powder and dubious priming mixtures.

Sure, in certain "special" situations, one could "discretely" cock the rifle before use by hauling on the cocking piece.

However, on the two way rifle-range, a "dud" round was a lot more likely to be simply ejected and a fresh one chambered in its place. The extra fooling around to re-cock by hauling back the cocking piece means that your firing hand is not in the right place to be ready to fire another quick shot, anyway.

If the rifle continued to just go "click" on fresh ammo, it was high time to find another one whose owner no longer needed it and to carry on.

[muffett.2008]

Australian troops in Korea requested the larger old style knob, as it was easier to use with gloves in sub zero temperatures,
most pic's of OZ snipers in Korea show the old knob, my HT also has it, so maybe the No.4's were set up for the same reason.

[Peter Laidler]

Just one question Muffer and it's this..... Just WHY would they request a bigger knob if you'll excuse the pun! Surely you don't need to use gloves to cock the rifle - you just open and close the bolt. If it was a misfire, then looking on the realistic side, if your rifle misfires when you're on active service, you just reload and shoot again, surely. Or am I missing something? Another realistic view would be that the same gloved hands also lift the bolt (bigger knob perhaps?) and squeeze the trigger (arctic trigger?)

I never heard of this while in Oz and a lot of our blokes at the time were ex Korea men. Lauri Taggart from Castlemaine certainly didn't need a bigger knob

[Beerhunter]

This is the first time that I have heard of this and it really doesn't make any sense to me either - starting with the physics!

[Lee Enfield]

Question: why didn't the real experts - BSA and H&H, who actually built the rifles - fit button cocking pieces?


I'd be interested to see the data the OP experts compiled that proves there is any difference in performance between different types of cocking piece...


IMHO, its a military rifle and should therefore be rebuilt or restored to specification, and not to someone's benchrest novelty...

I think you just hit the nail on the head, who ever wrote that probably was exposed to converted Trials rifles and early converted Savages....which were mostly fitted with "button" cocking pieces.

Especially as I think the quote may be?? attributable to Reynolds.

[harlton]

Hi All,
please don't all get so upset, it was just a question ruminating in my head. I've ' read it' in several places, when reading about No4T's and in loads of pictures of them, a lot have them.
As I wasn't born until 10yrs after the war was over, I cannot be held responsible for the design of a larger Knob. As to the physics, there are all kinds of things that can be done to adjust for that.
My question was really why and which, whoever was there, they must have had some reason for the heavier Knob, lock time was where my mind went first.
It makes the most sense to me, to fit the lightest possible piece, which is why I wondered about the reasoning behind fitting the button type in the first place. Nether the less, someone with more knowledge than I, decided to do so, and for some serious reason.
I'm sure it wasn't just that I, and others see them as cool looking, on our "benchrest novelties" some nigh 80yrs later. Seeing as they go for nearly a buck a year on ebay these day's, and those real rifles are lucky, that see a shooting position these days, and not just locked up in a vault somewhere.
As to what I'm polishing, it's the whole pin, the inside of the bolt, then a chemical peening process is applied to the one part, and the springs,it makes it almost frictionless with a light oil. I don't know about lock times as I don't have equipment for that. I have tested this same process on my suspension dyno, and I know it works there, and also on engines, and nice as it's mostly invisible.
I would think a little preload on the spring, would probably equalise out the heavier piece. making it the same basically, just with a harder hit. I don't know why, but they did they use it, when the other was already in use, there must of been a reason. On a sniper rifle strikes me accuracy would be the main issue. If it was just gloved hands thats good to know, I wondered about the primers back then, I have no knowledge of them. My apologies if I'm wrong, but I thought maybe a harder hit would make sure they went off, never experienced that issue having a larger knob. thanks for the answers.

[Surpmil]

I believe Reynolds states that the rounded or MkI cocking piece was intended to reduce the chance of injury to the hand during bayonet...shall we say, "practice"

Eliminating it was a cost-saving measure we are told, and as we know from the other cocking piece designs that were tried and sometimes used, the authorities were quite keen on reducing costs of manufacture - or was it just that sometimes some engineers were quite keen on making their mark by trying to "improve" things?
,
The half-cock is a much under-rated feature IMO and it's certainly easier to put the rifle on half-cock with the MkI cocking piece. If you want to restrike a misfired cartridge, it's nice to be able to cock the action without opening the bolt too. The Lee Enfield has such a good safety that the half cock doesn't get the attention it deserves.

The idea of weights and lock times had never even crossed my simple mind I'm afraid. I suppose if one wants to polish things it might be worth polishing the firing pin shoulder, the firing pin hole in the rear of the bolt and the bolt bore itself. Then case harden the whole thing afterwards for real excitement!

When the No4 was the "Dominion standard" for competitive shooting here such things used to delight the heart of many a range shot, along with projects like hardening and polishing the faces of cocking pieces, grinding 'pulls' off triggers etc. etc.